Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 8th, 2017

[Robert Kewley]

You know, it's like how many people were in courts when I was with the police, how many people were charged with theft.

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

Thank you.

[Robert Kewley]

Well, you know they were, but—

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

Thank you, Mr. Kewley.

You can always follow up with those numbers if you're able to access them.

Mr. Van Kesteren, you have five minutes, please.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for the opportunity to be here. Do I have five minutes or seven minutes?

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

You have seven minutes.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

I'm not a sitting member of this committee, but in taking just a quick glance around this room, I think maybe Mr. Tilson is the only one who isn't either from an immigrant family or an immigrant himself. I think that speaks to much of what our society is.

I say that and, Mr. Kewley, I think maybe I'll go to you. Isn't part of this problem the huge demand that we've seen on the immigration system? When I was a kid and my parents were immigrants, I don't think I remember hearing of refugees. The immigration process was such that my parents knew well in advance, as I'm sure yours did, Borys, that they were coming to this country and that was all—

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

I just have a point of clarification, since it was mentioned. They were displaced persons, which today would be considered refugees.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Okay. That's a very good point. This just proves my point. We didn't even call them refugees at that time.

The point is that today we have a huge flux of refugees, and we also have a huge group of individuals who enter the country through immigration, through another process. They come here, and they make application.

Isn't that really the biggest part of this problem? We talk about the shortfalls that we have in accommodating and helping these people, but isn't there just such a glut of individuals that need services that we've suddenly had this problem put upon us? Is that a fair analysis?

[Robert Kewley]

It is with respect to the number of immigrants who come here and who run into problems. If the number increases, that's going to spill over, but I still maintain that there are people out there. Criminals make a full-time job of being criminals. They're good at it. They know what's happening in the systems, and they try to beat the systems.

These ghost consultants out there have got it down to a science.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Let me interject. I would suggest that most people who are going through the system, through the normal channels, probably wouldn't engage with a ghost consultant. Wouldn't they be more apt to—

[Robert Kewley]

They don't know. We're not just limited to Canada for these unauthorized representatives or ghost consultants. We have them in all countries around the world. They have offices and do seminars. They do lots of things. There's a big problem over there.

How does the judicial system in Canada work to go over there? It doesn't.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

That's a good point and, as I said, I have a default here. I'm not a sitting member, so I've probably missed much of the discussion.

I keep pictures of my constituents or those living in my constituency who are looking to gain entry. I do that to remind myself that I need to advocate for these people. Oftentimes, in all of these cases, they didn't go through the normal channels, but having spoken to them, I am impressed that they need my help.

I have found that many of them who have come to me have made their complaints. I'm going to shift over to you, Madame Fortin. I would say most in my riding have complaints with their lawyers. They have found that their services have been poor or haven't been adequate. Subsequently, they were given a deportation notice. I wonder if you want to respond to that. Again, I'm in southwestern Ontario. We have a lot of farm workers as well as refugees. There were a number from the Middle East who were seeking refugee status.

I'm hearing a lot of complaints about your profession, the consultants, but I'm going to give you a chance to have a backlash. Do you experience the same things that.... Many people are having the same problems with lawyers, and the only problem I see is possibly that the consultants don't have the ability or the know-how on how to keep working the system, how to keep going back to the courts.

[Gabrielle Frédette Fortin]

I've heard from many witnesses to date. When the witnesses are lawyers, they blame the consultants, and when the witnesses are consultants, they blame the lawyers. I don't like this practice.

Here's my personal experience. I have a bachelor's degree in public affairs and international relations. At the end of the three-year degree, I wanted to become an immigration consultant. I didn't necessarily want to become a consultant. I had to choose between completing 500 hours of courses directly related to immigration over a year, and taking courses in private law over a year or a year and a half. However, the curriculum to become a lawyer didn't include any immigration courses.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Do you handle a lot of refugee cases?

[Gabrielle Frédette Fortin]

No, it's not my specialty.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Is it possible that some of the allegations are coming from refugees? Again, my experience has been that those who are refugees—and some are legitimate, and some jump the queue—make this their home. Their children are born here, so we work hard to get them.... They were successful, but only because they had lawyers who were able to keep going back to the system.

Is that where we're getting a bit of a crossover with immigration and refugees?

[Gabrielle Frédette Fortin]

I think the response doesn't necessarily coincide with the refugee crises. I think these complaints have always been made. I'm trying to explain who these complaints are coming from. The complaints are coming from insiders.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

Ms. Kwan, you have seven minutes, please.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to get this on the public record to be clear in terms of the “glut”, as my good colleague sitting next to me here might have mentioned, around the immigrant and refugee community. To be clear, the refugee community number for the immigration levels planned for this year is at about 40,000. That's within the context of 300,000 overall, so that is about 13%. This is the “glut”, if you're talking about that. Within the context of the international community, there are some 65 million refugees out there. Within the context of what Canada is doing in terms of our part, that is 0.00061538%, or less than 1%. This is just be clear and to get this on the record.

To turn to the issue around the situation we're faced with, whether you're a regulated consultant or an unregulated consultant, we are hearing from witnesses that there is a whole host of problems. The interest I'm wanting to focus in on is about the people who use these consultants and how they are penalized. Often for these people who make these applications, unbeknownst to them, there might be unregulated consultants out there, or even regulated ones who are not doing a very good job.

My first question was touched on in the previous presentation with the other witnesses. For the so-called ghost consultants, as it stands right now, the application is such that you don't make clear who your representative is. If the information with respect to the representative is wrong, it's the applicant who bears the brunt.

The Metro Toronto Chinese and Southeast Asian Legal Clinic made a recommendation that the responsibility for the information about the representative should lie with the representative, who should then sign a declaration as to its accuracy. If the representative is not an authorized representative, the application should not, on that account, be considered incomplete. Instead, the applicant should be informed that the government will not accept that person as their representative, but the application will still be processed and that any appropriate disciplinary measures should be pursued against the representative without penalizing the applicant.

On this issue, I'd like to ask both witnesses if they agree with this recommendation.

[Robert Kewley]

I think not. I think that probably part of it is resolved as far as regulated consultants go, because you have a “use of a representative” form that's submitted with the application or process, and it clearly states who the consultant involved is. It's easy to determine at that stage.

I think there's enough information out there in public media and social media such that the ICCRC is well known. I think that in these law areas, these church or different groups that help are well aware of it. There's a lot of information out there, and I think that can determine who the consultant is. If they are a ghost consultant and they submit an application to Immigration Canada, then it should be the responsibility.... How do we know everybody who submits an application? There should be some responsibility—

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I'm sorry, Mr. Kewley. I'm interrupting you for a minute because you're not answering my question.

Maybe I'll turn to Ms. Fortin.

[Gabrielle Frédette Fortin]

I've thought about this issue.

Regulating settlement agencies and the immigration work of all the people I mentioned earlier, even though they contravene section 91, and forcing all applicants to be represented would result in the representative's name and number being included on each immigration application in Canada. This would make a number of options available, including a representative who provides free services in settlement agencies, a consultant who provides a cheaper service than a lawyer, and a lawyer who provides a service for people with more resources. Everyone should be represented, and a number should be included on each application.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much.

Let me ask this question. The previous two witnesses we heard from suggested that there should be a graduated licensing system, that is to say, people who practise in this arena ought to have a certain level of competency before they are able to do that work. Would you agree with that suggestion?