Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Oct. 5th, 2017

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Oliphant (Don Valley West, Lib.)), Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I'm going to call this meeting to order. This is the 73rd meeting of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we're continuing our briefing on the issue of asylum seekers who are irregularly entering Canada from the United States.

We welcome both Minister Hussen and Minister Goodale to continue in our briefing.

We've heard from officials in both of your departments as well as from one agency. We're delighted you're here.

Because it's Mr. Goodale's birthday, we'll begin with his opening remarks, and then hear from Mr. Hussen.

[A voice]

Happy birthday, Ralph.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

It's not every day you turn 39.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Another one.

Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. That's a wonderful present. I'm delighted to be here. It's good to see you again in a new capacity; I remember you last being the chair of the public safety committee.

Hello everyone.

I'm very glad to have the opportunity with Minister Hussen to discuss the issue of irregular migration.

I would like to thank the committee and its members for their exhaustive and rigorous review of this important national issue.

Canada is an open, welcoming, and generous country, but it is also a country with the rule of law, and the Government of Canada takes its laws and the integrity of its borders very seriously.

Some people, in the circumstances of this year, appear to have been misled to believe that crossing the border into Canada in an irregular fashion is somehow a free ticket to Canada—but it certainly is not. We have been making that point repeatedly in Parliament, in the media, in the public domain, and in the United States since the surge of asylum seekers began earlier this year.

We want people to know that crossing the border into Canada between designated ports of entry is contrary to the law. We also want to warn people about how dangerous that can be. That's why there are rigorous immigration and customs rules that must be followed.

To be clear, we enforce those rules through the CBSA, the RCMP, the IRCC, and other agencies to protect our border and to safeguard our communities while we also respect all of Canada's international obligations, including those that are reflected in section 133 of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act.

Everyone seeking entry to Canada must demonstrate they meet the requirements to enter and/or to stay here. That's a matter of fact, proof, and evidence. It is not negotiable. It applies regardless of where or how people try to enter the country.

Those entering Canada outside of ports of entry are subject to particular scrutiny. They are arrested by the RCMP or by a local law enforcement officer under the terms of the Customs Act. The RCMP then conducts a preliminary risk assessment to determine if the person has been involved in illegal activity or presents any safety or security risk.

This assessment involves detailed questioning, searches, the examination of documents, and so forth. It may result in the person remaining in RCMP custody for further investigation, if that is deemed necessary, or being transferred to another police agency, if that is the appropriate course. Or, the person will be brought to a Canada Border Services Agency officer at a port of entry or to an inland CBSA or IRCC office.

Once they have cleared that preliminary police and security check at the moment of irregular crossing, asylum seekers then face a careful process to determine whether they are admissible and eligible to make a claim according to Canadian and international law. There are no shortcuts, no exceptions, and no special treatment. There are also no guarantees that an asylum seeker will be able to stay in Canada. That is up to the IRB to determine. Not all asylum claims will be accepted, and not everyone is eligible even to make an asylum claim. The rules are very clearly specified in the IRPA, the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act.

Verifying an asylum claimant's identity is, obviously, fundamental and essential. It's done for all cases, each and every time, using both biographic and biometric information. This screening includes an interview, taking fingerprints and photographs, as well as medical, security, and criminal record checks. The process is intended to ensure that anyone who wants to come to Canada has not committed serious crimes and does not pose a health or safety risk to Canadians.

An asylum seeker's records are examined for any immigration, criminal, or national security concerns and they are checked against Canadian, international, and other databases, including Interpol's. No one leaves the port of entry without this initial security screening having been completed in a very professional manner, in the first instance by the RCMP, and then by CBSA.

If there is doubt, they can and will be detained. If the applicant is eligible, the person's file will be referred to the Immigration and Refugee Board for appropriate consideration. The person will be authorized to be in Canada to attend a hearing of the IRB, where each claim is decided on a case-by-case basis.

Bear in mind that the nature of the claim being made by asylum seekers is that they are seeking asylum in Canada because they need Canada's protection for their life or their safety. If the IRB determines that individuals are not in need of Canada's protection, they are removed from Canada. Under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, removal orders must be enforced as quickly as possible. The Canada Border Services Agency is firmly committed to doing so. Sometimes, you will note, they get some flack for that, but it is their duty under the law to effect those removals as quickly as possible.

Many people have been working very hard to ensure that the process I have described is managed effectively, efficiently, and in as orderly a fashion as possible. That includes reallocating resources to where they are most required within the RCMP, within CBSA, and within IRCC. Responding to the increase in asylum seekers this year has been very much a whole-of-government effort. Besides the two or three that are abundantly obvious, numerous departments are involved in the coordinated response, and that is all organized and coordinated through the Government Operations Centre in my Department of Public Safety. The leadership shown by all the agencies has permitted an efficient and effective response to a very fluid situation.

Enhanced processing capacity at Lacolle and at inland offices in Montreal and Cornwall has significantly reduced the backlog of people awaiting initial processing and eligibility determination. In some cases, we are able to conduct both the initial interview and investigation and the secondary stage eligibility interview at Lacolle, and that reduces pressures down the road.

As members of the committee will know, the ad hoc intergovernmental task force on irregular migration, of which Minister Hussen and I are members, was recently created, involving not just the federal agencies but also a number of provincial agencies, to work on issues related to the influx of asylum seekers entering Canada from the United States. The collaboration at that level has been very good. The task force has met four times so far, most recently a week ago today.

Canadian authorities are diligent in protecting the integrity of our border and the safety of our country while applying our rules and procedures to provide refuge for those in need of our protection according to Canadian and international law. The government will continue to address irregular migration in accordance with that law and in keeping with our values as an open and welcoming country.

Thank you for your interest, and I am happy now to give the floor to Minister Hussen.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Minister Hussen.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, Minister of Immigration]

Thank you very much, Minister Goodale.

Mr. Chair, first of all, happy birthday.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

It's not mine; it's his.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

It's not yours. Okay, I thought it was. Someone told me it was your birthday.

It's a pleasure to appear once again before this committee. I look forward to answering any questions committee members might have on this important and timely topic.

First, I would like to make a few comments.

I know you've heard from officials in my department over the past two meetings, and they've described to you some of the actions we've taken to address the recent increase in asylum seekers crossing into Canada from the United States outside designated ports of entry.

I'd like to follow up on these comments by stressing that Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada has been working very closely in partnership with other departments and agencies and with other levels of government to ensure that we have the capacity to deal with the situation and to process claimants expeditiously while maintaining the overall integrity of the asylum system. I'll also note that while asylum seekers await decisions, the social assistance supports they receive are funded and provided to them by our provincial partners. As we take these actions, we remain strongly committed to orderly migration and to, first and foremost, ensuring the safety of Canadians.

Mr. Chair, Canadians can be assured that we've been monitoring the situation for many months and putting in place the necessary plans. Although it's far from a routine situation that we're facing, it's one that we've been able to manage responsibly, effectively, and professionally. I'd like to take the opportunity to thank my department officials and officials in all the different agencies involved for how they've been able to rise to the challenge and respond with the utmost professionalism, nimbleness, speed, and ingenuity.

I'll now outline the concrete ways in which we're responsive. When we saw the numbers of irregular migrants begin to increase at the Lacolle border crossing, we were able to quickly mobilize in order to reassign staff and set up additional office space so that we could keep up with the volume and process asylum seekers quickly for their eligibility hearings. In fact, these efforts have enabled us to bring the eligibility processing timelines of from five to seven months down to from five to seven days.

We figured out a way to fast-track work permit applications from asylum claimants across Canada in order to alleviate the pressure on the social assistance budgets of provincial governments. This is an issue that was raised by the Government of Quebec, and we moved quickly to establish a new 30-day service standard for work permit applications so that asylum seekers may support themselves and become self-sufficient while they await the final decision on their claims. This minimizes the impact they have on provincial social assistance programs.

Similarly, we have built in flexibility to ensure that asylum seekers are covered under the interim federal health program immediately after background checks are completed, but while they are awaiting their initial hearing. This is important because we want to ensure that public health is protected, that asylum seekers have access to basic care, and that there is no undue burden on hospital emergency rooms and provincial health care budgets.

Mr. Chair, all of these are great examples of how we have been responding to an uncommon situation in an effective manner. At the same time, we've been working to dispel the false information that has prompted many to embark on a journey to cross our border. We know this situation is, in part, fuelled by misinformation on various social media outlets and other channels suggesting that certain groups of individuals will receive preferential treatment or be given status in Canada. This is, of course, incorrect, and all claimants have been and will continue to be treated according to existing laws.

We've taken a number of steps to dispel false information and inform people in Canada and the United States of the facts regarding the asylum process in Canada. In recent weeks, two of our colleagues, multilingual members of Parliament, travelled to the United States to help counteract this false information among different diaspora communities.

They met with local politicians and community leaders, and made appearances in the local media and multicultural media, as well as in Canadian and broader U.S. media. As well, I had the opportunity to hold a very fruitful round table discussion on this very issue with groups in the United States, in New York, groups who serve immigrant communities and actually take in phone calls from people who call them to ask them about the asylum system in Canada. This round table included the largest immigrant service providers in New York state, as well as the New York city mayor's office and the legal services provider for immigrants. These groups will now be able to provide and pass on the correct information to the thousands of individuals they deal with on a monthly and weekly basis.

One of the things that have become clearer through these meetings is that many different groups of people in the United States are receiving false information about the Canadian asylum process. We are coordinating outreach approaches targeting each and every one of these communities through our U.S. missions and consulates. At the same time, we are conducting outreach to stakeholders right here in Canada. This is through targeted emails to key stakeholder organizations, video and audio messages available on the IRCC website, media outreach, and social media. All of these materials are being translated into the languages used by the diaspora communities we are trying to reach. We've also begun monitoring Spanish-language media in the United States, and have distributed our outreach products to those media.

Efforts are also under way to gather information from those who are already here, to determine where they came from and what sources of information they relied on in order to make that journey to Canada.

Mr. Chair, we are ramping up our outreach efforts and our intelligence-gathering to remain on top of this situation. I look forward to continued collaboration with our key partners, including provinces and territories, and contingency planning to handle any future fluctuations. In fact, in the middle of this process, whenever the provinces were bringing to us any pressure points, we were able to work with them and collaborate to coordinate solutions on those issues.

Canadians should be confident that our officials continue to manage this uncommon situation in a professional and effective manner.

I want to thank you very much, and I look forward to answering all your questions. Merci beaucoup.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you very much.

Both ministers were amazingly disciplined in their time. I would have expected that from Mr. Hussen. I'm surprised at Mr. Goodale—

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

—from my previous experience.

We'll go to the Liberals for the first round of questions.

Mr. Anandasangaree.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ministers, members of the panel, welcome to the committee. Thank you for your presentations.

Minister Hussen, you mentioned that the whole intake at Lacolle has been managed “responsibly, effectively, and professionally”. I think it's fair to say that this has been a very consistent message that we've heard from other stakeholders.

I do want to ask you specifically about the safe third country agreement. Perhaps you can elaborate on it—on the need to have it intact, the importance of ensuring the orderly entrance into Canada, and the importance of it with respect to our relations with the U.S.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Absolutely. The safe third country agreement is an agreement between Canada and the United States. The agreement is essentially based on a principle. This principle, supported by the United Nations refugee agency, says that an asylum seeker should not engage in asylum shopping. They should claim asylum in the first safe country they land in. In essence, if an asylum seeker lands in Canada, they shouldn't claim asylum in the United States. The opposite is also true. If they first land in the United States, they shouldn't claim asylum in Canada.

Based on that principle, Canada and the United States entered into this agreement in 2004. The agreement says that we will enforce that principle. At the time the agreement was negotiated, the agreement was basically supposed to cover official ports of entry where Canadian and American officials can see the asylum seeker present themselves. The agreement, as it was entered into, covers that situation where people would present themselves at a port of entry and claim asylum. That agreement continues to be in place. When, for example, an asylum seeker comes from the United States and presents themselves at a Canadian port of entry, the safe third country agreement applies. They're told to go back to the United States to claim asylum there.

There are exceptions to the safe third country agreement. For example, if you have a blood relative or if you are an unaccompanied minor, then you can still make a claim in Canada. Essentially, however, as a broad principle, if you present yourself at a Canadian or an American port of entry, from either Canada or the United States, you're supposed to claim asylum in the country you came from.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Mr. Goodale, you outlined the screening that takes place with respect to health, criminality, and admissibility.

Can you specify any major trends or concerns, if there are any, that have come about with respect to the number of claimants you have processed so far?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

I'd ask the officials from CBSA and the RCMP who have the actual on-the-job experience in this.

When I look at the reports that have come in over the last seven or eight months, my impression is that—apart from the challenge of the volume of problems that have to be dealt with at the border from time to time—the actual degree of difficulty with the cases is relatively small overall.

The experience has not been one of significant risk to the health or safety of the public. In the very few cases where those issues present themselves, the management right on the scene is a combination of RCMP and CBSA, with a lot of co-operation from other law enforcement authorities, so they are able to deal with particular cases immediately and effectively to ensure that Canadians are not exposed to any risk.

Mr. Cloutier, would you have something further to add?

[Jacques Cloutier, Acting Vice-President, Operations, Canada Border Services Agency]

Thank you, Minister.

That's absolutely right. Generally speaking, Mr. Chair, we are dealing with situations on site, immediately as they are presented. They do not present themselves on a regular basis. Overall, in our estimation, even less than 1% of cases deal with serious criminality, and they are resolved at the time in their entirety.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Mr. Anandasangaree, one thing is clear in the IRPA: that issue alone—serious criminality—renders a person ineligible to make a claim for asylum. It's a very effective screen.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

My next question is to both ministers, keeping in mind there's very limited time.

You mentioned, Minister, that we're dealing with an issue of due process, ensuring that those who come in—whether with an admissibility issue or an actual claim—get due process and are treated fairly.

Are you confident that the mechanisms, timelines, and resources are in place for that to take place, both at the admissibility stage and at the processing stage?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

I have seen absolutely no evidence to the contrary. In fact, from time to time, NGOs and the UN High Commission for Refugees are monitoring this situation. Their reports in terms of how CBSA, the RCMP, and IRCC have conducted themselves have been consistently very positive.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

We've been able to manage the situation at IRCC by redeploying staff and rededicating resources. We've done it with the resources we have. It's been a question of being a little more efficient, finding innovative ways to deal with this, but essentially redeploying staff to pressure points and massively beefing up the Montreal IRCC office to do eligibility hearings there, as well as having a mobile team at that time at the NAV Centre in Cornwall, to make sure we were able to do that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Anandasangaree.

Ms. Rempel.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I'd also like to extend my birthday wishes to the minister. It would probably be uncouth of me to mention that he's a few years older than my father.

In all seriousness, I think all of us here, regardless of political stripe, would agree that ensuring rigorous control of Canada's border helps to instill confidence in the immigration system. I think it also helps to prevent the rise of nationalist rhetoric, such as we've seen south of the border. My questions are going to be in that context.

We heard this week that the IRB is at a 40,000-case backlog, which is incredible. Obviously, we need to have any means possible to ensure that the spirit of the safe third country agreement is being pursued. It has been noted that when the safe third country agreement was negotiated in 2002, there were several loopholes that were allowed. Frankly, they're being used today to thwart the spirit of the agreement by people who are entering Canada illegally from the U.S and then making asylum claims.

A previous colleague of mine who was a former immigration minister has stated that he “repeatedly asked the Obama Administration to amend the STCA to remove the loopholes.” He also has stated that they “completely refused to consider any changes.”

Yesterday, I noted that he speculated that this was “because the US government regards it as being in their interests that a certain number of illegal aliens 'self-deport' themselves to Canada, so the US doesn't have to worry about tracking, detaining, or deporting them.”

I'm not asking you to comment on that, but rather on the following question. Has the government broached the topic of amending the safe third country agreement to cover claims made by people entering Canada through unofficial points of entry with the new American administration, especially as we renegotiate NAFTA? I think it could be argued that it would be hypocritical for the Americans to ask Canada to improve border security if they're not willing to reciprocate.

Or, is the government content to allow the new administration a convenient option to encourage people to self-deport to our country with a minimum amount of American resources involved?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I'd like to just begin by saying that we in no way encourage irregular migration. If your question is about Canada becoming sort of like a second option for people who have exhausted their options or feel that they've exhausted their options in the United States....

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Just to clarify, my comment is whether or not the government has broached with the Americans the renegotiation of the safe third country agreement.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

We haven't done that.