Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Jan. 27th, 2021

[Guillaume Cliche-Rivard]

Those restrictions should be lifted not only for Hong Kong residents, but also for all travel bans. Someone who has received their permanent residence confirmation is not dangerous. They will not repeatedly enter and leave Canada. They have received a permanent residence confirmation for them and their family. I think it makes no sense for future permanent residents not to be able to come to Canada right now, while people can come here as visitors to see their spouse or their children.

I do not want to favour one category over another, but applicants who have a permanent residence confirmation should be able to come to Canada right away, especially Hong Kong residents. Of course, the order should also introduce an exemption. Individuals who want to obtain refugee status must be able to use that exemption, so that they can take the plane and make their claim when they arrive at the airport.

There is nothing in Canada's international obligations under the 1951 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees.... It is important for Canada to respect its international commitments and allow refugee protection claimants from Hong Kong and from around the globe who are in danger....

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Mr. Cliche-Rivard, I'm sorry for interrupting. Time is up.

We will now move on to Ms. Kwan.

Ms. Kwan, you have six minutes for your round of questioning. The floor is yours. You can please proceed.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for their very thoughtful presentations.

I'd like to go to Ms. Go first, on the following question.

With respect to measures, back in 1989, the government brought in a variety of measures to deal with the Tiananmen Square situation. We just heard from officials that they did not consider those measures. I take a different view; I think the government should be looking to that situation, learn from that history and apply it to the current day.

One of the measures brought in was to ensure that all removals of Chinese nationals in Canada were suspended for an indefinite period. That's something we have not done. Do you think the Canadian government should do that?

[Avvy Yao-Yao Go]

Yes, for sure. I think it's in keeping with that spirit that we recognize that there is a political crisis in Hong Kong, just as there was a crisis in China at that time, and we allowed Chinese nationals at the time to apply for permanent residence, just like that. In fact, I remember that through my work with the Chinese Canadian National Council at the time, we were helping people apply for permanent residence.

The moratorium on deportation lasted beyond the period of that program, until, I think, the early 1990s. That, for sure, is something we should consider right now.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you.

Just related to that, the official also said that the government did not consider, and will not consider, refugee status because of the UNHCR designation, and so on.

In the 2019 mandate letter to the Minister of Immigration, the Prime Minister actually instructed him to “[i]ntroduce a dedicated refugee stream to provide safe haven for human rights advocates, journalists and humanitarian workers at risk”. Do you think we should be adopting those measures? If we do not, those folks who do not qualify under these various streams will never be able to get to Canada, even on the privately sponsored refugee stream. What are your thoughts on that?

[Avvy Yao-Yao Go]

Yes, I agree. In all the history of Canada, we know that, over time, we have created different refugee programs in recognition of a political situation happening in another country. Just off the top of my head, former Yugoslavia is the first one I can think of. Certainly we can create a program for this particular situation, knowing there is no UNHCR in Hong Kong and they have nowhere to go. Some of them have gone to Taiwan, but Taiwan is not a country that has signed on to.... Well, Taiwan is not even recognized as a country, and they have not signed on to the UN convention on refugees.

A lot of these people are stranded in some other countries as well and are not able to access any of the UNHCR offices, so I think we should definitely create a program for them.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you.

I see Mr. Li nodding on that issue. Can I get you to quickly comment on that, as well?

[Eric Li]

I totally agree. As I said, like chicken and egg, we never get the refugee status for those people, so we cannot use any of our existing programs to support them. I totally agree with your suggestion that we should have a blanket policy like the one we had in 1989.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you.

I wanted to jump into another area because, again, learning from history is really important.

One of the directives that came forward with Tiananmen Square was to say to the officials at the time that we should always keep in mind whether individuals have somehow “embarrassed their government”—and in this instance it's the Chinese government—“and in so doing have exposed themselves to severe sanctions should they return.” Yet that directive has not been given here to the people who are processing H and C applications.

Do you think the government should say that outright and clearly as a directive?

[Avvy Yao-Yao Go]

Is that a question for me?

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Yes, Ms. Go.

[Avvy Yao-Yao Go]

I don't think the H and C process is the way to go, because H and C is a very discretionary process. It's up to the individual officers, and who knows if these officers support or don't support the pro-democracy movement in Hong Kong. If anyone needs to sign a declaration, maybe the immigration officers should sign declarations about their commitment to human rights.

Putting that aside, I think the best way is to create a special program so we are not relying on the discretion of individual officers, similar to the Tiananmen Square program. It's simple, it's efficient and it will be much more inclusive than what we have right now.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

That's fair enough.

I absolutely agree, but in the absence of that, I certainly hope there's a clear directive on H and C claims, because I'm quite worried about that process.

I'm noting my time.

You've all mentioned the limitations of the existing programs, because only a very small group of people would be able to access entry into Canada. If the government extended family-class reunification and even allowed those who are students here to apply to sponsor extended families to come to Canada, that would expand it a lot. I think I heard agreement from everyone that the government should indeed expand the family reunification measure to extended family and lift the travel restrictions, without which nobody can get here.

Can I get a quick answer from everybody on that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

There are five seconds left.

[Avvy Yao-Yao Go]

I agree, but you have to relax the income requirement.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Time is up.

Thank you, Ms. Go. I'm sorry.

We will now move to our second round of questioning. Based on the time, we will have four minutes each for the Conservatives and the Liberals, and then two minutes each for the Bloc and NDP.

We will start with Mr. Genuis. You have four minutes for your round of questioning. The floor is yours.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you so much to the witnesses for their testimony, but especially for the important work they're doing.

It seems to me that the government's program in this area is odd, because it's about economic categories and criteria, for the most part, instead of trying to identify human rights defenders and people who are most vulnerable to political persecution. It's great to have economic migrants coming from Hong Kong, but there are so many people who would face charges under laws unrelated to the security act. There are people who are not eligible but who are most at the epicentre of these human rights issues.

It shows the problem with the government's thinking and approach to this. You can realize both benefits, of course. People who come here who face persecution can still bring a great deal of benefit economically, and that includes people who may not have that much money in their pockets when they come. The reason people are calling for immigration measures around Hong Kong is not that someone saw an economic opportunity; it's the human rights and the political situation.

I want to hear your thoughts specifically on what kinds of measures we could have around immigration to target the most vulnerable human rights defenders. You can use Hong Kong as an example. However, perhaps it's applicable to other contexts around the world as well, that when we have people who are at the centre of advocating for human rights and who become politically exposed as a result, those people would make great Canadians in virtually every case.

We do this, but it seems we do it on more of an ad hoc basis. The minister uses his or her discretion to say we're going to have this person from Saudi Arabia or whatever. However, thinking in a more systematic policy way, how do we identify those important human rights defenders and give them a path to Canada?

Maybe Ms. Go can be first, and I'd love to hear the thoughts of others.

[Avvy Yao-Yao Go]

It's hard to think of it as a broad policy mechanism, because every country's situation is different. Using Hong Kong as an example, you can say that a lot of people are at risk right now, but we don't know exactly at what point they will become at risk. We know the police can arrest them at any time, but we don't know on what day. Technically, let's say you are a democracy activist in Hong Kong and you have not been arrested. Are you considered at risk under our definition of conventional refugee? Maybe not.

In the case of Hong Kong, I think what our government can do is work with community groups like ours, which have connections in Hong Kong, identify people who we think are potentially at risk because of their involvement, and try to find a way to bring them here through the temporary resident permit or through some other way.

Even if the Canadian government doesn't want to advertise it, because it doesn't want to make the relationship with China any worse, there are ways we can work together.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I would like to drill down for a quick follow-up while my time lasts here, Ms. Go.

Do you think there's a process where we can ask Canada-Hong Kong organizations to help us identify a certain number of individuals who have not yet been arrested or charged but are particularly exposed or vulnerable, and say, “We want to identify a certain number of people. We want to work with you, as civil society groups, to identify those individuals so we can create a special path for them”?

[Avvy Yao-Yao Go]

Yes, I think that's doable.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Sorry for interrupting, but your time is up.

We will now go to Madame Martinez Ferrada.

Madame Martinez Ferrada, you have four minutes for your round of questioning.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

If time permits, I will share my four minutes with my colleague Mr. Regan.

I thank the witnesses for being with us and for their comments.

According to what we are hearing, Hong Kong residents are worried they will be refused entry into Canada if they were charged with a crime under the National Security Law. However, a bit earlier today, the department representatives told us that, if it has been established that those individuals had not committed an equivalent offence in Canada, that criminal charge would have no impact.

For example, a peaceful protest does not constitute criminal activity in Canada, so a charge or a conviction for that abroad would not lead to admission into the country being refused.

Do you think this is well understood by Hong Kong residents who may be likely to be arrested under the National Security Law?

[Avvy Yao-Yao Go]

First of all, the way arrests are being done right now, they are not going to tell you that you are being arrested because you peacefully participated in a protest. They are going to tell you that you have breached the national security law based on treason, sedition and so on. The charge itself is not peaceful protest; the charge is treason or sedition.

I think we can go beneath that to understand the conduct leading up to the charge, but rather than doing that and relying on the individual officer's interpretation of the facts and the law, we should look south of the border, as an example. I can't remember whether it's the U.S. Congress or Senate, but I believe they have basically stated that anyone charged with a criminal offence because of their peaceful participation in the protests in Hong Kong would not be barred from entering the U.S.

We can work something out that is similar to that requirement so we don't have to rely on individual CBSA officers, particularly in light of the fact that CBSA has recently tried to make the case for giving itself more power, as opposed to the immigration division, to decide who is criminally admissible and who is not.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Mr. Li, would you like to add something?