Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 1st, 2021

[Cherie Wong]

Again, I'll jump in, if you don't mind.

One of the proposals I have made is a private sponsor program. I know that it currently exists for asylum seekers to be sponsored by community groups or by a group of individuals to resettle here in Canada. There is a strong diaspora community here that has been doing a lot of the asylum support work and supporting refugees, whether financially or in daily life in Canada. If we could make amendments to that program, we could expand this collaboration for diaspora communities to support more asylum seekers to come to Canada. As I have proposed, if there is Cantonese-language access for the programs that are specifically targeted to Hong Kong, that would be an amazing addition.

I would also recommend considering putting Hong Kong and claimants from China into the less complex claim stream, which would expedite the asylum application process for Hong Kongers and other community groups being suppressed by China.

[Rev. Dominic Tse]

I would like to say a few words regarding the context of the situation.

I think that the watershed time was last July, when the national security law, this is draconian law.... For me, having Hong Kong citizenship, by appearing today, if I go back to Hong Kong, I will be arrested for consorting with foreign forces. By appearing before you guys today, I have basically decided that I am not going back to Hong Kong, and I tell my children, do not go back to Hong Kong because your dad appeared at this public event and that was consorting with foreign forces.

This draconian law is used as the almighty power to arrest and to muzzle people, and that has been happening for the past months. Pastors, doctors and nurses were forced to swear allegiance and basically to stay silent. The entire city has been changed forever.

Regarding immigration, I think that right now there is a time issue. The Wall Street Journal has published an editorial regarding the escape routes. I think the escape routes are closing.

In 1949, when the Communist Party of China took over China, a lot of people said, “We can go back to Hong Kong from China, no problem,” but overnight—I believe it was in 1950 or 1951—the border was closed. Families were separated until the 1980s, when they could actually apply. That day will come. The people are talking about it and, boom, it will happen, so time is of the essence.

My proposal is for as many people as possible to come in with a work permit, as simple and as easy as what a BNO five-plus-one can do. They can do it quickly. People can come, and then they sort out all the issues so that they can apply for this or that. We don't need to change a lot of programs but just get them in here sooner. That would expedite their coming over safely, after the pandemic, of course. Then they can tap into all the resources that we have and the programs, and then we can do a little bit of a twist there to improve all the programs. I think we need drastic measures.

[Brian Wong]

I would just like to add a couple of points here.

Actually, right now the Hong Kong government is trying to keep people's money. Even if they let people go, those people have the equivalent of our CPP. They're supposed to get it after they retire, but some people may not be able to get it if they leave Hong Kong. It is thus better to let them come as soon as possible. I think this is the lesson of the thing.

The other thing to enlarge the lifeboat is to let people work even if they are studying. Let them make their living, because right now we only allow people who are wealthy, who have enough money, to come to study. If we let them work, they can contribute to Canadian society. I think we would be making a good future for them, because they would have Canadian experience and then, after they graduated, could find a job more easily.

However, one thing I would like to bring to your attention is that when we allow people to do the application, I would encourage you to do the background check, because the CCP government might let some spies come in as well, according to our experience.

I totally support what Dominic just shared: A lockdown can happen any time. That's what happens.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting, Reverend Wong. The time is up.

We will now move on to Madam Normandin.

Madam Normandin, you have six minutes for your round of questioning.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for their very informative, but above all very concrete testimonies, with very concrete recommendations.

I'll ask one question with a long preamble. I invite all three of you to take the time to answer it, since you talked—you in particular, Ms. Wong— about putting in place more vigorous measures, since those that currently exist are perhaps a little too restrictive.

I'll draw a parallel with a situation we experienced last week. The House, on the initiative of the Bloc Québécois, voted unanimously in favour of granting Canadian citizenship to Raif Badawi. Mr. Badawi is a Saudi blogger who has spoken out against the Saudi regime, which is why he's in prison. Newspapers revealed that the Minister of Immigration would not grant citizenship to Raif Badawi because, he says, dual citizenship is not recognized in Saudi Arabia anyway. Therefore, he would not be able to benefit from our consular services—which is somewhat similar to the situation in China. There is also concern that a negative reaction from Saudi Arabia could have as negative an impact on Raif Badawi.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this fear that may originate in the government if we were to call for strong action. Would it be legitimate to fear for the safety of foreign nationals and fear reprisals? Should we put in place special measures to protect them anyway?

[Cherie Wong]

I think we need to continue a strong stance. China is an international bully. They aren't retaliating against Canada for what Canada is doing, but they are actively going through every liberal democratic country on this planet to challenge us, to challenge our standard and see whether or not we will stand up for human rights.

We need to be prepared to accept some of the costs that we will incur from standing up to China, but Canada is not alone on this international stage. We have allies across the Five Eyes in the democratic allies that we have, and we can stand together and accept some of these consequences. We see that the U.K. has already braved it, and Australia and New Zealand are coming up with new measures. We are thus not alone, and I think we can continue to take a strong stance.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Pastor Tse, you have the floor.

[Rev. Dominic Tse]

I would like to assist you on addressing the fear factor. When you're dealing with a bully, if you are afraid, you are giving more reason for the bully to bully you, but if you stand firm, the bully knows that there's a limit to his bullying and then he will back off.

I think the Chinese government, being a bully, knows the logic, and apparently in Canada we have our issue, what about our two Michaels, and so on, and that we shouldn't do anything. However, we have our two Michaels, and if we don't stand firm, there will be many more Michaels, because every Canadian in China will become a Michael. We need to stand firm.

Look at what happened to Australia. They stood firm, and then eventually they didn't suffer that much. They enjoyed cheaper lobsters and still sold their coal. We can enjoy cheaper lobsters. Why not? Actually, we're not that weak. We have the Five Eyes. We have our allies, and when we begin to stand firm....

I really encourage the government, with all the parliamentarians, to stand firm. Then China knows there are limits and they will begin to realize that the game changes. It's up to us to stand firm.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Go ahead, Reverend Wong.

[Brian Wong]

According to Mao's strategy when he fought the civil war, if their enemy steps back, they will go forward, but if their enemy steps up, they will retreat. This strategy is adopted by the Chinese government right now. If we step back, if we have fear, they will just come forward. Therefore, Canada has to stand firm, otherwise the Chinese government will just keep bullying the democratic countries.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

I'd like to ask you another question about the study permits that were part of the November 12 announcement. They are generally granted if the agent has reasons to believe that the person has sufficient funds to support themselves and return to their own country. However, in this case, it is intended to be used to keep the person in Canada long term.

Should different instructions be given to agents who grant permits to be more permissive in the case of Hong Kong?

[Rev. Dominic Tse]

I would like to address this issue. A friend of mine applied and she got rejected for that very reason. It's a contradiction because we're encouraging our students to have the three-year Canadian experience program to stay. We encourage the people we train. We spend money to train them to stay. At the same time, we only need those people who don't want to stay.

Do you know what I'm saying? This is a contradiction. I'm with member Ms. Normandin that we should modernize our instruction to the officials. The study permit is not something that you—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Pastor Tse, I'm sorry for interrupting. The time is up. We will now have to move to the next speaker.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Ms. Kwan, you have six minutes for your round of questioning. You may please proceed.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses.

My first question goes to Ms. Wong. You outlined a number of special measures that you think the Canadian government should undertake. I wonder whether you would be in support of calling on the Canadian government to stop all the removals of Chinese nationals in Canada—that is to say, for Canada to suspend removals of Chinese nationals during this period.

[Rev. Dominic Tse]

Yes.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you.

That was in fact a measure that was adopted, by the way, when Chinese nationals were faced with the crisis with Tiananmen Square back in 1989. It would be a duplication of that kind of measure.

Related to that, with the Tiananmen Square immigration measures, the government of the day also put forward specific instructions to officials at IRCC, which at that time was called CIC, to note “all persons who have in some way individually embarrassed their government”, referring to the Chinese government, “and in so doing have exposed themselves to severe sanctions should they return.” That was one of the reasons recognized by the Canadian government at that time.

Do you think the Canadian government should be instructing officials to adopt that type of perspective as well, given the situation that Hong Kongers are faced with today?

[Cherie Wong]

Yes, and I think the Canadian government should consider issuing travel documents directly from consulates to enable more Hong Kongers, whether they are in Hong Kong or in a secondary country waiting to be resettled in Canada, to get that document to resettle here.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

With the Tiananmen Square initiative, the Canadian government issued what is called a minister's permit for people who were abroad so that they would be able to exit that country in order to come to Canada. In this instance, doing a similar thing would then be the Canadian government adopting a measure providing minister's permits for individuals who are abroad so that they would be able to exit Hong Kong to come to Canada.

At the time the Tiananmen Square situation was happening, Canada applied this measure, which was for those who were sponsoring loved ones here in Canada, to those who were abroad. While the application was being processed, a minister's permit would be issued so that they could get here without having to wait through a long processing time.

Is that what you are calling for?

[Cherie Wong]

Yes, and I think this kind of measure should be inclusive of individuals who may not hold a Hong Kong SAR passport as well.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you.

The urgency of this situation is clear, because we've heard about mass arrests and heard that people are rapidly facing very difficult circumstances. We know of individuals who are in Hong Kong—former legislators, for example, who had given up their Canadian citizenship—and who were pro-democracy activists and the like and are now at risk. There may be many other Canadians who are abroad who, for whatever reason, have given up their Canadian citizenship.

Do you think that the Canadian government should bring forward a measure to reauthorize Canadian citizenship to those who are in Hong Kong at the moment and have given up their Canadian citizenship?

[Cherie Wong]

Absolutely I do, and I foresee that there will be permanent residents of Hong Kong who may be out of status, whether because of imprisonment or of having been forced to renounce their status. I think the Canadian government should consider expanding that amnesty to those who lost their status for various reasons.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

With other countries, for example in dealing with the LGBTQ2+ communities, the Canadian government put forward a pilot program, which has now become a permanent program, working with NGOs abroad and in Canada to support refugee status of LGBTQ members who were being persecuted because of their sexual orientation.

In that way, we could duplicate this kind of program for the people of Hong Kong so that we can ensure a refugee initiative would be in place for the people of Hong Kong outside of the UNHCR component.

Is that something you think the Canadian government should do, adopt a pilot program for the people of Hong Kong?

[Cherie Wong]

I think in fact it should be a permanent program for Hong Kong, but absolutely, yes.