Evidence of meeting #24 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was positions.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Derek Johnstone  Special Assistant to the National President, United Food and Commercial Workers Union Canada
Charles Milliard  President and Chief Executive Officer, Fédération des chambres de commerce du Québec
Krishna Gagné  Lawyer and Vice-President for Economic Affairs, Association québécoise des avocats et avocates en droit de l’immigration
Alexandre Gagnon  Vice-president, Employment and Human Capital, Fédération des chambres de commerce du Québec
Louis Banville  Vice-president, Human Resources, Olymel L.P.
Isabelle Leblond  Corporate Director, Human Resources, Olymel L.P.
Leah Nord  Senior Director, Workforce Strategies and Inclusive Growth, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Olivier Bourbeau  Vice-President, Federal and Quebec, Restaurants Canada
Lauren van den Berg  Executive Vice-President, Government Relations, Restaurants Canada

4:05 p.m.

Lawyer and Vice-President for Economic Affairs, Association québécoise des avocats et avocates en droit de l’immigration

Krishna Gagné

You are completely right. Many companies seeking skilled labour did not close during the COVID-19 pandemic. They remained active. However, as Mr. Gagnon and Mr. Milliard said earlier, the available positions don't necessarily match up with unemployed people. Saying that all LMIA applications must be refused when the unemployment rate is high is akin to taking an intellectual shortcut. It would be equivalent to disregarding the reality on the ground. A high unemployment rate does not create more skilled staff for the available positions.

4:05 p.m.

Vice-president, Employment and Human Capital, Fédération des chambres de commerce du Québec

Alexandre Gagnon

I would like to add something.

Thanks to federal transfers, significant amounts are currently being invested to help workers affected by the pandemic requalify. The goal is to redirect them toward positions in strategic sectors where workers are needed.

Unfortunately, there are a number of reasons why, despite the high number of participants, attendance is not really sufficient to confirm that decisions must always be made based on the unemployment rate. The mismatch between skills and company needs is still there. So the 6% threshold is not adequate in the current situation.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Thank you very much.

I would now like to discuss labour mobility.

We have heard representatives of several companies say that, owing to closed work permits, they could not move an employee from one of their branches to another. Owing to the COVID-19 pandemic, companies have stopped their activities and workers have had to wait to obtain a new work permit. We have seen this in the farming community, but also in other sectors. When there was a shortage of employees in one location, employees from elsewhere who no longer had a job could not go work there.

Should there be more flexibility in terms of work permits? For instance, couldn't work permits be issued by region, especially if the unemployment rate is low there, or by trade, particularly in the case of high-demand trades?

4:05 p.m.

Vice-president, Employment and Human Capital, Fédération des chambres de commerce du Québec

Alexandre Gagnon

Work permits should be more open. As you said, employers should be able to transfer employees from one branch to another, or even from one position to another within an organization. Currently, some temporary foreign workers can spend one, two or three years in a company. We would like to provide them with career opportunities, as well, but the temporary foreign worker program does not currently allow for this. That possibility should be available, so that an employer going through a difficult period could decide to transfer an employee to another branch or to a neighbouring business.

However, I suggest that you be careful, as an employer who hires temporary foreign workers obviously has to undertake a lengthy and expensive process. He must ensure to get a return on his investment.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

I'm sorry for interrupting, Mr. Gagnon, but your time is up.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Thank you very much.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

We will now proceed to Ms. Kwan.

Ms. Kwan you have six minutes for your round of questions. Please proceed.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for their presentations.

Mr. Johnstone, I know that UFCW has worked extensively with the migrant workers sector advocating for their rights and addressing many of the concerns that migrant workers are faced with.

With respect to the issue around accessing landed status, the government previously had a program that would bring in permanent resident immigrants to the country for all kinds of skill levels, high, medium, low, the full range. That's now been done away with.

Do you think Canada would benefit from bringing back such a program, particularly to address the issue around the high number of temporary foreign workers that Canada is now relying on?

4:10 p.m.

Special Assistant to the National President, United Food and Commercial Workers Union Canada

Derek Johnstone

Do you mean in terms of permanent immigration?

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC

Yes.

4:10 p.m.

Special Assistant to the National President, United Food and Commercial Workers Union Canada

Derek Johnstone

Absolutely. I think it's fundamental to address a lot of the concerns raised during the conversation so far, but also, as a trade union—and you touched on our work a bit, Ms. Kwan—we of course are focused on helping migrant workers, predominantly in the agricultural sector, to assert their rights as well as they can. Currently under the system, a migrant worker is tied to a single employer. That employer may or may not be a responsible employer. There are many responsible employers in the system, but we know from 30 years of doing this that all you have to do is pick up the Globe and Mail or take your mainstream publication to read about all the irresponsible employers. A migrant worker can either put up with that or go back to their source country, which may not be an option.

One theme that has been covered widely is that there are a lot of crooked recruitment firms that have really made hay with the temporary foreign workers program. As it stands now, we have people coming from places like Honduras, Guatemala and Mexico, of course, paying upwards of $10,000 for the opportunity to pick tomatoes in Canada. They get that money from loan-sharks. They get the money from organized crime. They get it where they can, because the fact is it is a life-changing opportunity for folks, and there are a bunch of unscrupulous characters and actors in the mix who capitalize on the desperation of workers, which creates a very vulnerable and precarious population.

The truth is, labour mobility within the system will help to some extent with that, but it won't have a dramatic effect on the situation. The only way that changes is if these folks have status—these folks become permanent residents on track to be Canadians. That's the only way to ameliorate vulnerability and precarity in the sector, or else we'll still hear these stories on a regular basis.

The fact of the matter is—I know that I've heard from my colleagues here a desire to expand the caps in sectors—we know through our experience that when a group of highly vulnerable workers in a sector becomes 20%, 30% or 40% of the sector, it's inevitable that it will have an impact on labour standards in the sector. When you get to the point where there are 60% or 70% vulnerable workers in a sector, as we see in primary agriculture—guess what—you get a labour market ghetto. You get a place where no Canadian in their right mind would want to work. You get a place where health and safety standards are pale in comparison to those in other dangerous sectors. You have a place where the only way people ever get a wage increase in those sectors is that the minimum wage rates increase, and even then we have an increasing phenomenon of people being forced to work on the black market, so God knows how much they're getting paid.

It's a big problem. I certainly sympathize with some of the business interests on the line, but to our labour economists on the phone, I would say if you have a bunch of unemployed workers and a bunch of jobs, there's obviously some sort of distortion taking place in the labour market. With the temporary foreign workers program—hundreds of thousands in Canada—there is no opportunity for equilibrium in the market so it never happens.

To the free marketers out there, I guess an argument could be made that the way these jobs get better is if we allow the market to do its thing, and that will not happen when you have sectors that are becoming reliant on migrants.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC

Thank you.

In terms of announcements, the government actually just recently announced that 90,000 TFWs will have access to a pathway for permanent resident status. However, the government actually excluded those who may have lost their status or undocumented workers.

What are your thoughts on that? Should the government actually ensure there are pathways for those who might have lost their status, or those who are already in the country and contributing in many ways?

4:15 p.m.

Special Assistant to the National President, United Food and Commercial Workers Union Canada

Derek Johnstone

The question is why did they lose their status? We know from our work in the heartland of Canadian agriculture, the UFCW, which for two decades has had a centre in Leamington, Ontario—

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

I'm sorry for interrupting, Mr. Johnstone, but your time is up.

We will have four minutes each for Mr. Saroya and Ms. Dhillon, and then two minutes each for Madam Normandin and Ms. Kwan before we end this panel.

Mr. Saroya, you can please proceed.

April 21st, 2021 / 4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Saroya Conservative Markham—Unionville, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Johnstone, as far as I know, from back in 1974 when I arrived in this country, the labour shortage existed. It always has and it always will.

The LMIA program exists because of the labour shortage. Even today if you drive from Niagara Falls to Montreal, most of the workers in every single restaurant are students.

Do you think the people in the two- or three-year work visa program eventually should be allowed to apply for permanent residency in this country?

4:15 p.m.

Special Assistant to the National President, United Food and Commercial Workers Union Canada

Derek Johnstone

I would just start by stating a fact that when the seasonal agricultural worker program was established in Canada in 1966, a decade before the year you mentioned, the grand total of temporary foreign workers in Canada was 256. Now it's upward of 400,000.

The difference was, of course, that for most of our history you could come to this country and build a life. At some point we decided for skills that some people deem as low-skilled, whether it's pulling tomatoes off a vine, clearing tables in a restaurant, being a line cook or a cashier.... There are over a thousand TFWs in Canada who are cashiers. There are over a thousand TFWs who are hair stylists. Thousands are butchers at the industrial and retail levels. These jobs were gateway jobs. They were jobs. You came to Canada. This is where you started and you worked from there, but at some point we decided that the foreign workers were going to do these jobs, and we were not going to give them an opportunity to become citizens. That's what's changed.

To answer your question, they should absolutely have the opportunity to become citizens. Seventy-five per cent of our history was based on that. Canada is a nation of immigrants, as we all know. At some point we have decided that.... It's interesting. These jobs we are talking about are the front-line jobs throughout COVID. The media and politicians are calling the people in these jobs heroes. But when it comes to letting these heroes become Canadians, the answer is no.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Saroya Conservative Markham—Unionville, ON

These heroes are not even qualified to get their vaccine yet, by the way.

Does anybody else want to add something to this?

4:15 p.m.

Vice-president, Employment and Human Capital, Fédération des chambres de commerce du Québec

Alexandre Gagnon

If I may, I will add that we have common goals in this respect.

We are also concerned about the time frames and the possibility for those temporary workers to have access to permanent residence. What we are asking for today is intended to help them have access to permanent immigration programs as quickly as possible. We feel that this is an important issue, and we agree with the unions.

There is a problem when it is said that they won't necessarily be accepted in our programs and that their arrival would not be facilitated. Quality long-term jobs, which can be done by low-skill or unskilled workers, are currently available in Quebec. These are permanent needs. We need those people. So they must be given access to Quebec's and Canada's labour markets. That would meet our workforce needs .

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

I'm sorry for interrupting, Mr. Gagnon, but your time is up.

We will now proceed to Ms. Dhillon for four minutes.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My first question will be for Mr. Johnstone.

Canada's immigration system is under constant development to ensure that it is as responsive as possible to the ever-changing domestic and international landscape. Labour market trends show that immigration is fundamentally tied to the growth of our populations and the resiliency of our workforce.

Pilots like the municipal nominee program and rural and northern immigration pilot have been introduced in the immigration system to decentralize immigration from large cities and also to provide stability for workers. Providing immigration certainty for workers and minimizing their exposure to potential exploitation is extremely important.

Do you consider economic PR pathways to be the right direction for the government to continue on, and what are some of the policy changes you would like to see to further this goal?

4:20 p.m.

Special Assistant to the National President, United Food and Commercial Workers Union Canada

Derek Johnstone

They are fundamental.

You mentioned the exploitation of workers. I've already talked about it, in addition to nation building, growing our GDP, population growth is core to that. If the concern and priority of the federal government is to reduce well-documented worker abuse and exploitation that happens in many instances in the temporary foreign workers program, then permanent immigration must be central to that. There's an opportunity to do that through the federal and provincial nominee programs.

The UFCW was very pleased to see the establishment of a federal nominee program through the agri-food sector. We supported that announcement. We've certainly advocated for a federal nominee program for many years. However, we have been disappointed by the fact that would have long been the standards for immigration to Canada in terms of wooing high-skilled workers have just been transposed on to low-skilled migrants. There has to be some consideration given to the practical reality that there are language challenges for some very hard-working migrants. It's an excellent opportunity to take a more stakeholder-oriented approach to easing folks through their quest to get PR.

In Manitoba, in the meat sector, one of our locals there, UFCW Local 832, has long worked for the provincial government on provincial nominee programs. We offered language training. We worked hand in hand with employers to make sure that migrants had the skills they needed over time to fully integrate into their communities.

We need to have that conversation federally. As I said in my opening statements, we had a forum 10 to 15 years ago which was terminated. That was the federal sector council program. We need to get back to sector approaches at the federal level, which bring together stakeholders, labour, employers, civil society, the government, to work together and combine our efforts to put together policy that is not only going to solve the labour needs of our core sectors but give folks a fighting chance, at every level of the labour market, to realize their dreams in Canada.

That conversation is not taking place. It needs to take place if we're going to seriously reform the program for the better.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

All right; your time is up.

We will now proceed to Madam Normandin.

Madam Normandin, you will have two minutes for your round of questioning.

Please proceed.

4:20 p.m.

Bloc

Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Mr. Milliard, since I have a bit of time left, I would like you to tell us about your fourth recommendation, concerning the obligation to submit a transition plan.

We have heard less about that aspect in our committee. If you told us about it, we may better understand that aspect when the time comes to discuss the recommendations we must include in our report.

4:25 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Fédération des chambres de commerce du Québec

Charles Milliard

The goal of the transition plan is to transit the use of temporary immigrants.

However, in the current situation, especially in Quebec, we know very well that most people see the TFWP as permanent. It would be hypocritical not to admit that. In the current context, the obligation to provide a transition plan is not only superfluous, but nearly useless. In fact, we want to hire those workers on a permanent basis.

Mr. Gagnon, does that complete your comments?

4:25 p.m.

Vice-president, Employment and Human Capital, Fédération des chambres de commerce du Québec

Alexandre Gagnon

In fact, the transition plan enables the employer to temporarily hire a temporary foreign worker, under the condition that they indicate how they will ensure to find local labour to staff that position over the short, medium or long term.

Records in terms of vacant positions and in terms of labour shortages have been set for a number of years and will continue to be set for many years, according to economists. It is in this context that inconsistency is manifesting. For the majority of positions, the transition will be done only through the process enabling temporary immigrants to become permanent residents.