Citizenship and Immigration Committee on June 7th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Mr. Griffith, please just sum it up. The time is up.

[Andrew Griffith]

I have concerns on infrastructure, given the nature of the needs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you.

We will now proceed to Mr. Dhaliwal.

Mr. Dhaliwal, you will have six minutes for your round of questions. .

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank and welcome all of the presenters.

My questions will go to President McLauchlin.

I'm one of the fellows who migrated to Canada. My first stop was Alberta. I went to the Southern Alberta Institute of Technology and then the University of Calgary. My first job was in fact in the rural set-up, that being in Vermilion and Vegreville, when I worked with Alberta Transportation.

As we heard from Mr. Griffith, most newcomers to Canada tend to settle in and around higher populated cities, most of which are already home to large immigrant communities. Could I hear your thoughts on how the smaller communities compete with the larger cities to attract and retain newcomers? You gave one example, but you could elaborate. How can small rural communities promote themselves abroad?

[Paul McLauchlin]

Thank you for that.

I think this really becomes about that rural economic development and that need for diversification. It's really having that conversation looking at immigration as one of the pillars for promoting economic diversification in rural Alberta for rural Canadians.

I think that you're exactly right. The typical immigration model is that you move to the city and you stay close to your community. At the same time, we are in a global world right now. The fact is that the skills, technology and education are so transferrable. If you want someone to come to your community, you have to make sure the family is happy. It's really looking at the quality of the schools and having that conversation.

We've experienced this, too, locally. I live on a farm. I live close to a town that's actually looking at attracting.... Two of the critical pieces we have in rural Alberta are a shortage of doctors and we are getting into a crisis place with veterinarians. To attract great doctors and great veterinarians, you need to actually look at leveraging your community, selling your community and making sure people understand that rural Alberta is fantastic.

I know your time is short. The one thing that's happening right now is that rural Alberta is seeing an exodus of folks from urban areas. If there's one positive thing that has happened with COVID, people have realized that they can actually be in a different part of the world, make a living, look for great opportunities and live that quieter life that rural Alberta holds.

That exodus is truly happening right now. I think we can start looking at that as an opportunity to attract immigrants to rural Alberta and rural Canada.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

It's my understanding that many of the rural municipalities are also facing the demographic challenges of an aging population and outward migration. In your view, which rural regions are most vulnerable to these demographic trends? How can our immigration system best address these types of challenges?

[Paul McLauchlin]

Thank you.

We have inverted pyramids in rural Alberta. Without even looking at the statistics, I will tell you that our small towns—and any town that's under the size of 5,000—are a pyramid. You have larger aged population and the opportunities for the youth....

One of our conversations always is that we want our kids to stay home. In order for our kids to stay home, we want to look at opportunity. What comes with that, too—and the immigration conversation is interesting—is it actually pulls in that investment. It starts to regrow these communities. I've seen communities die all throughout rural Alberta. At the same time, I've seen communities grow. The ones that grow really start to look at that whole conversation: We need to attract, invest and look for opportunity.

If you look for opportunity for us keeping our kids home, it's the same opportunity and the same conversation to attract immigrants to rural Alberta. It's the same package and the same conversation. It's the same set of services, supports and opportunities, as well.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

The annual immigration levels are determined by the federal government in consultation with the provinces and territories. In your view, have local municipalities been involved in these discussions in your area? What type of input is especially important for municipalities to contribute to the federal government when we set up those levels?

[Paul McLauchlin]

We are starting to have that conversation at the provincial level, and this would be the first contact we've had at a federal level. Definitely it's looking at this conversation and the fact that we, again, are 18% of the population. In order for us to be successful, we need to grow and look for opportunities.

Where we start looking at immigration and the repopulation, or bringing the opportunities in, I think, is an important conversation for us to be part of. We've just started the conversations at the provincial level. The immigration strategy has not been released. It is coming this summer, but we have been identified as a key stakeholder working with the Alberta provincial government and Minister Copping.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Can universities and post-secondary education institutions play a role in attracting people to rural Alberta?

[Paul McLauchlin]

Yes, 100%. Actually, Olds College has tremendous immigrant populations, the agricultural schools. I think our education program in Canada is so great that it is one of our assets that we need to leverage and also to tie in those pieces to agriculture—the value-added, resource-based economy—and allow people to identify opportunities in rural Alberta, for sure. I agree.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

You mentioned Canadians and doctors. What can the federal government, particularly, do to help you with those shortages?

[Paul McLauchlin]

I would love to talk about the doctor support, but the vet conversation is a critical issue. We need to look at better ways to provide that service. Large animal producers in rural Alberta are having trouble keeping their businesses alive if they do not have a vet. That is a key part of the value chain, a key part of their ability to grow livestock, and they require those services. I think it's a critical component. It's odd to argue for vets over doctors, but that's what Alberta is about. We need both, but right now we're getting to a crisis with veterinarians.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Mr. Dhaliwal, your time is up.

We will now proceed to Madame Normandin for six minutes for her round of questioning.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Mr. Griffith, my first question is for you. Statistics indicate that newcomers take 10 years to reach the same unemployment rate as the non-immigrant population. That is a very long time and may explain why they are less resilient in a crisis. Doesn't the criterion to be considered concern both the number of newcomers and our ability to integrate them, to ensure they are more resilient, to ensure they take less time to reach the same unemployment rate as the rest of the population? Isn't going to the regions a good way for those immigrants to reach the same unemployment rate as the local population faster?

[Andrew Griffith]

Thank you for your question.

I think the question is a a supply/demand kind of one, if I understand it correctly. In the past, of course, and also currently, most immigrants end up in the major urban centres and pass by, in many cases, the smaller centres, where, in fact, they may have more unique skills in relation to the population and may be able to do better.

When I look at the macro-trends, I still see that 90%-plus are going to the major centres, but I don't discount the importance of the smaller centres or the work they're doing in Alberta or elsewhere. Even if you can attract a relatively smaller number of people to the rural areas, they can have a very important and significant impact in those communities where there are labour needs.

The other point I would mention is that that's partially related to retention issues. Family class immigration can also play a part there, because if somebody comes on their own, they may move after a number of years. If their family or other family members are there, they're more likely to stay.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

My next question is for Mr. McLauchlin.

You talked about digital poverty. That is a topic of interest for me because we just made announcements on high-speed Internet access in my riding. It is said this will help farmers and entrepreneurs. Would it not also be a way to attract immigrants and to reduce depopulation? I would like to hear your thoughts on this.

[Paul McLauchlin]

That's a fabulous question. I'm going to try to contain myself in how passionately I speak about this topic. I believe this is a conversation around opportunity. When I use the word “poverty”, I only use that to shock people, inasmuch as I think we're missing an opportunity by not looking at the whole conversation around broadband, I think, as a charter right. I think we need to start looking at broadband that way, and that should be that important to the foundation.

In rural Alberta, we see a tremendous gap: 10 megabits down, and one up. You hear that old dial-up Internet in your head when you're talking about speeds that are that slow. I know it's hard to keep talking about broadband in context, but it is. The one thing that COVID has taught us is that it doesn't always matter about place; it matters about ideas. I think if we can bridge that digital divide, we can create new places and new opportunities that are really still tied to those ideas. I think it's very tied to this immigration conversation.

Thank you for that.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

I have another question about immigration types. Schools in the regions often struggle to meet the quota for the number of students. Would you welcome bringing in families with young children?

[Paul McLauchlin]

That is an excellent question. You're obviously very connected to the rural components of your constituency.

If a school dies, if a school closes, the community loses a lot. You're exactly right. The fact is that you have depopulation in some areas. I think looking at immigration as a way to make sure that these schools are sustained is critically important. Those are easy areas to find. I think those are areas that can be focused on. I think it's a fantastic idea. I've been around long enough to see schools close. It is so damaging to the culture of the entire community. It's an excellent opportunity, I do believe.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you. I will put other questions to you in the second round.

I would also like to put a question to Mr. Ramsaroop on how well foreign workers are welcomed. Often, two levels of government are responsible for the quality of housing. Health and safety services are provided at the federal level, but also at the provincial level. They sometimes send the ball back and forth.

Shouldn't a single level of government be in charge of, for instance, adequate housing?

[Chris Ramsaroop]

Thank you very much for that question.

There is definitely a concern. In Ontario we're seeing that occupational health and safety laws, or residential tenancy acts of each jurisdiction or each province, should be the area responsible for housing. What's happening is that we have this jurisdictional football. At the end of the day, no government is taking responsibility to protect the interests of temporary foreign workers.

Let's think of this as part of the national housing crisis. When we're thinking about low-income communities, migrant workers are subjected to precarious and deplorable conditions equal to other people's. Simultaneously, at the federal level let's think about housing as a right for all and at the provincial jurisdiction about providing the enforcement and legislative protection for the workers.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

Madam Chair, I think I am out of time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

You have 15 seconds.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

That's okay, thank you.