Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 16th, 2020

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Witnesses, it is great to see you. I know I have seen some of you in other committees. I'm on a new committee. Paul, you come to mind. I've known you for many years on the Hill, as well as Wendy and certainly Denise. I have seen you in other committees.

I have some tough questions. I understand and appreciate how important our foreign students are. I look at the spat we had with Saudi Arabia back in 2018. Based on the numbers in 2016, Saudi Arabia was probably about 10% of what we get in terms of people and students from China.

I'm going to ask some questions and these may not be easy questions, but I think they are absolutely something we need to consider. We have issues around Hong Kong, Huawei, the two Michaels. Are you guys concerned about what the Chinese may do in retaliation? It's a very delicate balance. My last numbers in 2016 had us at almost 150,000 short-term and long-term students from China. I would be interested, Paul or Wendy, what those numbers are today. I know we've had a bit of a decline because of COVID and [Technical difficulty—Editor] how important students are in terms of immigration, revenue, etc.

Can you elaborate on that relationship with China? It's a very delicate one.

[Paul Davidson]

I'd be happy to start, and Wendy may be able to have the most up-to-date enrolment numbers from China. International student enrolment has grown both for colleges and universities over the last decade. China has been a significant source, and so has India. China is the largest source for universities.

That said, for a number of years we've been working to diversify the source countries, and we are very actively doing that to make sure we don't become overly dependent on one particular market.

There are some differences between the Saudi situation and the China situation, in that most Chinese students are self-financed, whereas in the Saudi situation they were scholarship students sponsored by the Saudi government. So there are some differences there. Frankly, both Canada and China recognize the value of having the flow of students from China to Canada and from Canada to China.

You are right that we are in a period of change in political dynamics. We're quite mindful of those dynamics, but we also know that universities play an important role in keeping channels of communication open when other channels are not open, and also the people-to-people contacts can develop and contribute lasting benefit to Canada.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West, ON]

Okay, thank you. I know that recently the minister was questioned on what would happen, given what's going on in Hong Kong. Would they consider restricting some people of influence? What's your thought on restricting Chinese students as a result of their parents and who they are and their connections? That's another delicate balance you guys may need to look at.

[Paul Davidson]

Welcome to the committee. These are terrific questions.

Because over the years we have worked together on a number of issues and all parties have worked on building and strengthening the relationship with China and increasing the flow of students from China, I think we're all committed to trying to find solutions that reflect the current reality. One stream is to diversify our sources of students.

With regard to the situation in Hong Kong, our universities take those situations very seriously because universities believe in the free flow of people and ideas. There are a number of challenges with regard to the situation in Hong Kong and with the new legislative frameworks that have been introduced.

That said, we want to make sure we have a careful, calm and dispassionate conversation about these challenges. One of the benefits of Canada's approach to these matters and immigration matters is that it has been largely non-partisan. We're really encouraging that kind of dialogue, where we look at what the changing dynamics are, what the changing security challenges are and what the changing realities are in the realigning geopolitical movement.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West, ON]

Thanks, Paul.

The last question—and I apologize for giving you guys a hard time at my first meeting here—but China has a tremendous amount of influence and we've seen article after article on how they influence not only our institutions but individuals here. What do you guys do? You guys have to be aware of this, that once again it's going to be a delicate balance in how you deal with that stuff. How do you deal with the influence that China has over people here on the ground, as well as its influence in trying to influence our institutions?

[Paul Davidson]

We do a whole number of things, and there may be other venues and opportunities that describe them in greater detail. I want to assure the members of the committee that universities and other actors take the challenges of political dynamics very seriously. We're in regular dialogue with government officials across multiple departments and agencies to make sure we have the most reliable and up-to-date information in order to better manage the outcome in the interests of Canada and in the interests of the students.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West, ON]

Perfect. Thank you very much, Paul. I appreciate having you guys here today.

I understand completely how important our foreign students are. I have Brock University as well as Niagara College. I met with both of them recently, and we talked about the challenges they have in terms of being able to get students from all across the country.

I apologize, Denise, that I didn't get to you. I'm almost out of time, but I'll see if we can catch you in a subsequent round.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Mr. Allison.

Madame Dhillon, you have six minutes.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Ms. Amyot, you mentioned the new immigration targets announced by the Minister of Immigration.

Can you tell us why you support those targets?

[Denise Amyot]

Thank you very much for the question. I would be happy to explain.

Our institutions pay close attention to what employers in their regions are saying, not to mention national bodies that represent business and industry. They are all lamenting the skills shortage, which we know will continue to be a problem in the recovery phase. We also know that immigration is the solution to the problem and that international students make ideal immigrants, because they speak the language and have studied here. Many of them have also gained work experience in Canada.

Consider the Cégep de Sherbrooke, an institution that is working with other sectors to address the problem. The Cégep de Sherbrooke formed partnerships with eight regional county municipalities in the region. The institution delivers training and support to the international students, while the regional county municipalities provide accommodations, work placements and jobs for international graduates.

I could also mention the Cégep de Matane and the Cégep de l'Abitibi-Témiscamingue, both of which have told us repeatedly that, without international students, the local mining industry would be struggling. Why? Because international students tend to choose areas of study that local students do not.

I will end with this: the benefits are numerous when it comes to encouraging international students to come here in larger numbers and expediting the status recognition process so they can become immigrants.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you for your answer.

My next question is also about students. In my riding, many students aren't able to reunite with their spouses because their applications for an open work permit are denied over and over again, to say nothing of the repercussions of the COVID-19 pandemic.

Do you think that, during the pandemic, the rejection of those applications could affect the number of international students who choose to study in Canada? After all, they have to wait three years or more before being reunited with their spouses.

[Denise Amyot]

Is that question for me?

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Yes, Ms. Amyot.

[Denise Amyot]

Yes, it could have an impact. I would say Canada ought to be competitive by making it easier for international students to come to the country. Right now, as we know, overseas offices are closed, preventing students from coming to Canada. They can't, for example, provide their biometric data, so we should be looking at ways to fix that.

Certainly, spouses are an important consideration, so we should also be making it easier for them to come to Canada and join the workforce.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you for your answer, Ms. Amyot.

My next question is for Ms. Douglas.

Ms. Douglas, you spoke a bit before about the impact of COVID and immigration, especially on women. Do you believe that women are having a tougher time getting temporary resident visas because they don't have children or they don't have a husband, so they're considered to not have any ties back home and nothing to go back to? Can you talk to us a little bit about what you think about the requirements on this segment of society?

[Debbie Douglas]

That's a very interesting question.

No, our experience has shown that the folks who tend to have a very difficult time getting temporary resident visas tend to be racialized—and that would include racialized women—for a number of reasons. One of the things I wanted to speak to, given the government comment on issues of race and commitment to addressing racism, is putting forward a recommendation about this, which fits really well into your question. We're recommending that the government collect and publish disaggregated race- and gender-based data for all classes of immigration, including those seeking TRV—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Sorry for interrupting, Ms. Douglas. We'll have to end here. The time is up.

Madame Normandin, you have six minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

Thank you to all the witnesses for their opening statements.

My first question is for you, Ms. Amyot. You brought up the closure of biometric data collection centres in response to the COVID-19 pandemic and the problems that has created. That is an issue I was hearing about even before the pandemic. For instance, the Cégep de Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu was dealing with that because students from Réunion Island did not have access to such a centre at home. These are people who help alleviate the labour shortage in the biomedical field, in particular. We want to attract those students, and we don't want to see programs cancelled because of a lack of enrolment.

Once the pandemic is behind us, will people in countries without biometric data collection centres be able to provide their biometrics here?

[Denise Amyot]

You really hit a nerve because that is a very serious issue.

All of our members are complaining to us about that right now. Certain French-speaking countries in Africa are especially affected. A solution has to be found. I know the department initiated a pilot project around a mobile biometrics system at one point, but the project was disrupted, so I don't know what came of it.

As you suggested, people in the affected countries could submit to biometric data collection when they enter Canada. I completely agree with you. We are seeing a decrease in international student enrolment among our membership. I wish I could tell you enrolment was down 2%, as in Mr. Davidson's case, but it's much more for our members. That holds true for spring, summer and fall enrolment. The situation isn't looking any better for the winter, so we have to find solutions.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I'm going to keep the ball rolling with a follow-up question.

Do you think that is making it harder to attract French-speaking students?

[Denise Amyot]

Yes, I definitely do. In our experience, French-speaking international students are often from African countries, so everything goes through Paris or Senegal, depending on where they are from.

We've had discussions with the people in Senegal, and they are doing what they can to put something in place, but they lack the resources.

If the government is serious about attracting both English-speaking and French-speaking students, it has to find solutions—lasting ones.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

My next question is for Mr. Davidson and Ms. Therrien.

You mentioned online learning, so I would like to put that into perspective. Online classes are fine during a pandemic, but they may not be the way to go in normal circumstances. Keep in mind the different time zones and the fact that other universities do not recognize certain courses. Furthermore, if the idea is to keep those students here, they first need to be here.

I would like you to comment on the relevance of online learning and the need to offer it in normal circumstances.

[Paul Davidson]

Thank you, Madame Normandin.

I will say a few words, and then I'll ask Wendy to follow up.

First of all, in terms of the online experience, Canada's universities moved 1.4 million learners online in 10 days. It was a remarkable achievement and students were able to complete their course work in the winter, and then in the spring and summer terms we've been investing heavily to improve the online experience for students. It's particularly important for international students, and it was a key feature that distinguishes Canada from other jurisdictions. It enabled international students to register online to continue their studies, and to be eligible for the immigration benefits of study in Canada.

I'll turn now to Wendy Therrien just to describe some of the other dimensions of the online experience for international students and for Canadian students as well.

[Wendy Therrien, Director, External Relations and Research, Universities Canada]

Good afternoon, Ms. Normandin. Thank you for your question.

You raise a very important point. Certainly, the goal of every international student is to come to Canada. That's why they—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Sorry for interrupting. I think there's a lot of echo.

I will ask you, Mr. Clerk, to look into it. We can recheck.