Citizenship and Immigration Committee on June 3rd, 2024

[Laura Hewitt]

As I was able to share with the committee, for Hong Kongers who have obtained Canadian citizenship or Canadian permanent residency, we are pleased that, after reviewing all of our numbers, we approved all of those applications, as I noted, with the exception of the two. They are welcome to reapply.

That has been our experience. Eligible Hong Kongers who have departed and who meet the criteria continue to have access to the funds through the early MPF withdrawal process. Sun Life continues to process those applications and work with anybody who has questions about the process or may need additional information about the early withdrawal process.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Madam Greenwood, have you encountered issues with repatriating pension funds to Canada from offshore Chinese holding accounts? What is the issue here?

[MaryScott Greenwood]

I apologize. I'm not sure I understand the question. Is it the same...?

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Have you encountered issues with repatriating pension funds to Canada from offshore Chinese holding accounts? What is the issue here?

[MaryScott Greenwood]

Thank you so much.

If I understand the question about unlocking pensions for people departing Hong Kong, we've processed more than 80% of the applications to Canada.

I think your question is on the ones we haven't been able to. The inability to process those applications for permanent departure would be caused by various factors that include insufficient documentation, unmatched or missing signature, or another error. Some people already withdrew the funds on a previous occasion. That's only allowed once in your life. If you depart Hong Kong, unlock your pension, return to Hong Kong and depart again, you've used your one-time early unlock. Of course, your pension remains until you turn 65 or retire.

The other challenges would be related to whether you had a travel, temporary or student visa. At the present time, those do not permit permanent residency in Canada, so we would be unable to unlock for those types of documentation, as well.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you. You're right on six minutes.

We will now go to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

Go ahead. You have six minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses and welcome them. It's nice of them to take part in this study.

I have a simple question for both witnesses. Are the criteria for early withdrawal the same for Hong Kongers as for your other customers around the world?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Who is the question for?

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

It's for both witnesses.

[MaryScott Greenwood]

Sure, I'm happy to answer the question.

In a general sense, it is very difficult, wherever you are, to access a pension early. By design, pensions are made to last until you're 65 and you retire.

To access a pension early, it's pretty difficult. It's different but similar. In Canada, you have to go through a process with the Canada Revenue Agency, as I understand it. You must have been departed for two years, then provide certain documentation to your pension provider.

I'm not familiar with the rules in the United States. I should be. I'll get there. However, the rules in Hong Kong are quite similar in terms of evidence you must provide and how the trustee is able to process it. It is a fairly high bar.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

The question was quite straightforward. Are the rules and criteria for early withdrawal the same for both your customers in Hong Kong and your customers in other countries around the world?

Since this isn't a complicated question, I'll ask Ms. Hewitt to provide a shorter answer.

[Laura Hewitt]

Each jurisdiction sets its own rules for withdrawal from pension schemes, just like the CPP has rules. The Hong Kong MPF, which we're speaking about today, has rules for Hong Kongers departing, which are the ones I've outlined. Those rules remain the same regardless of where Hong Kongers move around the world, if that's partly what you're getting at. Whether they move to Canada or the U.K., those criteria for withdrawal from the MPF program remain. It's consistent regardless of where in the world they have departed to.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I gather that the criteria in place depend on the country where you're doing business.

Friends, do you consider the current political situation of Hong Kongers comparable to the situation of people from democratic countries?

[Laura Hewitt]

There seems to be some consistency around the world in terms of having a clear set of criteria for unlocking pensions, if you're trying to unlock them early. As my colleague shared, pension systems, by design, are not intended to be accessed early; they're intended to be there for when you retire and when you reach the age of 65.

Each jurisdiction has implemented a set of criteria, which could be a terminal illness or, in this case, early departure, and outlined criteria for it. That is something we see in pension jurisdictions around the world, and it is the case with the CPP, for example.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I gather that you're implementing rules set down by the Chinese government to prevent the people fleeing that government from withdrawing their assets, either because you don't want to upset a government or because you must follow its instructions.

You're currently treating Hong Kongers fleeing a totalitarian regime according to the rules set down by the regime in Beijing and not according to democratic values. That's my understanding.

[MaryScott Greenwood]

We're seeking to do what's best for our customers around the world. We will always be devoted to our customers. That's our focus.

The Indo-Pacific region of the world has over four billion people and accounts for $47 trillion in economic activity. Canadian companies, including Manulife, have been operating in this region for over 100 years. We are obligated to follow the laws in every jurisdiction in which we operate, but our core commitment is to our customers and to provide financial security for them in the long run. That's a constant for us.

Being there for our customers—regular people everywhere in the world or where we operate—is foundational, whether that's in Canada, the United States, Asia or Europe.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I just want to point out that the situation of Hong Kongers fleeing the current regime in Hong Kong is quite challenging.

Perhaps your financial institutions could stop thinking about interest rates and the potential money involved, and start thinking about criteria that may be relaxed, for example, for people who have already started the permanent residency process?

Couldn't you allow these people to make an early withdrawal if you have proof that they started their permanent residency process? Would you rather continue to work hand in hand with totalitarian regimes?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Brad Redekopp]

The time is up. We'll give Ms. Hewitt a brief opportunity to respond.

[Laura Hewitt]

We must comply with the rules and regulations in all of the jurisdictions in which we operate around the globe. That's true in Canada, and it's true everywhere else.

I hope I can give the committee some assurance that we are approving those applications for Canadian permanent residents and Canadian citizens, and we will continue to do so.

Once someone who has left Hong Kong meets the criteria, we are approving those applications, as I've said—all eligible ones, except for those two who need to reapply, if they fill out the paperwork—and we will continue to do so on an ongoing basis.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Brad Redekopp]

Thank you very much.

Madam Kwan, you have six minutes.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much.

I just want to be clear on the record with both of the witnesses. Is it the case that not one person has had their application rejected for the early withdrawal of their pensions as a result of being a BNO visa holder?

[Laura Hewitt]

To clearly state, if they have Canadian permanent residency or Canadian citizenship, regardless of which visa they have, they are eligible and we are approving all of those applications. If they do not have proof of the ability to permanently reside outside of Hong Kong, we are unable to process those applications until such time as they meet that criterion for proof of permanent departure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Madam Greenwood.

[MaryScott Greenwood]

I think the confusion is about what constitutes citizenship and permanent residency, because that in fact is a criterion for permanent departure from Hong Kong. It's also a criterion if someone were leaving Canada or the United States for that matter, but in this case, in the case of the BNO visa, it doesn't convey citizenship, so that's a question for governments to answer with respect to permanent residency applications. That's not something that a company can address.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I know this is outside of our jurisdiction. However, in the case of BNO visa holders in the U.K.—I actually was one, once upon a time—if they've been out of the country for five years plus one, in the U.K. they are deemed automatically to be citizens.

Has anybody from either of your companies been rejected for early withdrawal of their pensions in the U.K.?