Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 24th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 12 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.

Given the ongoing pandemic situation, and in light of the recommendations from the health authorities as well as the directive of the Board of Internal Economy on Thursday, November 25, 2021, to remain healthy and safe, all those attending the meeting in person are to maintain two-metre physical distancing and must wear a non-medical mask when circulating in the room. It is highly recommended that the mask be worn at all times, including when seated. You must maintain proper hand hygiene by using the hand sanitizer provided in the room. Please refrain from coming to the room if you are symptomatic.

As the chair, I will be enforcing these measures for the duration of the meeting, and I thank members in advance for their co-operation.

For those participating virtually, I would like to outline a few rules to follow.

You may speak in the official language of your choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either floor, English or French audio. If interpretation is lost, please inform me immediately and we will ensure that interpretation is properly restored before resuming the proceedings. The “raise hand” feature at the bottom of the screen can be used at any time if you wish to speak or alert the chair or the clerk.

When you are ready to speak, you can click on the microphone icon to activate your microphone. All comments should be addressed through the chair. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do our best to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on February 1, 2022, the committee is resuming its study of differential outcomes in Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada decisions.

It is my pleasure today to welcome the Honourable Sean Fraser, Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship, before the committee.

Thank you, Minister, for appearing again today.

He's also joined by the departmental officials, Caroline Xavier, associate deputy minister; Pemi Gill, director general, international network; and Farah Boisclair, director, anti-racism task force.

I would now like to welcome the minister, who will begin our discussions with five minutes of opening remarks, followed by rounds of questions.

Minister, you will have five minutes for your opening remarks. Please begin.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Minister of Immigration]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

I'm joining you today from Newfoundland. It's great to be back, making regular appearances before the committee.

Let me begin by saying that Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, or IRCC, has zero tolerance for racism, discrimination or harassment of any kind. However, we know that these problems exist throughout the public service and in our department.

If we really want to make a lasting difference, we must first acknowledge this reality. That's why creating safe spaces and an inclusive, healthy workplace is a priority for me, for IRCC's deputy ministers, and for the entire department.

We have an obligation to listen and to act. Our diversity in Canada is a major strength, and we all benefit, in my opinion, when we reflect that diversity in our public service. This is true for all federal agencies, and especially for IRCC, given its mandate to welcome new Canadians.

The department is committed to diversity and inclusion, not only regarding its employees, but in the work that we do as well, including the fair and non-discriminatory processing of applications that we receive from people of a wide variety of backgrounds.

I'd like to outline a few of the actions we're taking to address this ongoing commitment.

The first major step towards this commitment was to create, in 2020, our anti-racism task force. This task force guides the department's strategy to eliminate racism and applies an anti-racism lens to all of the work, policies and programs we're responsible for.

Overall, IRCC has been actively reviewing its human resource systems so that indigenous, Black, racialized peoples and persons with disabilities are better represented across IRCC at every level.

To this end, we have made 12 departmental commitments to make IRCC a fairer and more diverse place to work, to hold the department to account for its progress in this regard, and to change the composition of our workforce by 2024.

We have also made six commitments on anti-racism service delivery to measure, analyze and evaluate the impact of bias on service delivery, including a review of the services we provide to our African clients.

These commitments are important because only by measuring these parameters can we make changes.

Also, to deliver on our commitments, we've put in place numerous initiatives and training programs to support decision-makers across our various lines of business. Just a few examples follow.

We've set up a service delivery anti-racism working group that has mandated training to support decision-makers' understanding of procedural fairness and impartiality in the decision-making process.

The department's overseas quality assurance program has been expanded to conduct an annual review of application refusals.

We're mapping available race-related client data to identify possible bias, systemic racism and other barriers.

We're reviewing policies and programs to identify systemic racism or barriers in program and service delivery.

As we modernize and adopt new technologies, we are also developing guidance and implementing measures to mitigate bias and unintended negative consequences.

I would like to stress that we are committed to the fair application of immigration laws. As such, all immigration applications received by IRCC are assessed individually, based on the documentation provided by clients.

IRCC also has taken a number of steps to make real and lasting changes within the department to ensure that our actions support our commitments.

We've established the three-year anti-racism strategy, which includes in its plans mandatory bias training, mentoring and sponsorship programs; anti-racism work and training objectives included in their performance agreements; leadership programs for under-represented groups; trauma coaching sessions for Black employees and managers to enable them to recognize the impacts of racism on mental health; employee trust circles; racial impact assessment tools for policy development; and other initiatives to support workplace cultural change.

We're also focused on targeted recruitment processes to help meet higher representation levels. We are implementing anti-racism commitments in our leader performance agreements. To this end, IRCC is initiating a new three-year hiring and retention strategy to address the diversity of our workforce.

We are also preparing a talent management bank, where employees can register to be considered for employment opportunities within IRCC. Through such initiatives, we are beginning to see encouraging trends in employment equity, particularly at the entry level.

However, we need to make more progress in the middle and senior management ranks to make our workforce more representative of the Canadian population.

We need to develop a diverse workforce so that racialized individuals can contribute to our department, especially as leaders, and can inspire others to pursue leadership roles.

Madam Chair, is that the end of my time, or is that a signal that there's a little time left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

The five minutes are done. You can quickly wrap up for a few seconds.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

If I can conclude with one sentence, I would just say that it's not lost on me that there have been some very serious issues that have pertained to IRCC. I'm not here to suggest that they have not taken place but to commit to improving them. I think it's important for our department, and it's important for Canadians.

I'd be happy to take whatever questions the committee members may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Minister. You'll get an opportunity to talk further in the rounds of questioning.

We will now proceed to our first round of questioning. We will start with Mr. Hallan.

Mr. Hallan, you have six minutes. Please proceed.

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister, it's great to see you at the committee again. Thank you for coming.

In a recent article, IRCC was quoted as saying, “IRCC is committed and believes in creating a workplace free from racism, harassment, discrimination and marginalization of any kind.” Do you believe that this commitment is being met right now?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I think there are lots of examples of the spirit of that commitment not having been met. Frankly, I would be foolish to say otherwise.

That said, when I speak to the leaders within the department, including some who are with us at this committee today, I don't doubt that they're committed to effecting the kind of systemic change that will reduce the racism we see and that has been reported on.

To your question, I believe the commitment is an honest one. I think we have work to do.

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

In regard to the commitment and work that needs to be done, there seems to be really no action being taken. Since 2019, IRCC's office of conflict resolution received about 50 cases of racism and discrimination. We know about the Pollara report. According to your own officials, not a single person has been reprimanded or fired. Nothing has changed. We hear about all sorts of disgusting behaviour towards racialized employees still taking place.

Now, it's one thing to commit, but it's another thing to take action on that. According to just the numbers, there's no action being taken. What are you doing? What kind of plan do you have to address what's already in front of you?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I think it's really important that we not shy away from really difficult conversations. The Pollara report included some deeply troubling discoveries. One of the things I would point out, though, is that the origin of the Pollara report was a proactive decision within the department to do something in the wake of the murder of George Floyd by Minneapolis police officers, at a time when the world was talking about doing more to combat systemic racism. The department decided it wanted to do something too. It discovered some pretty serious things that we need to address, and that was part of the justification for launching this anti-racism task force.

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

Respectfully, Minister, definitely there's commitment, but, as you said, the anti-racism task force was struck in 2020. That was two years ago, and not a single person has been reprimanded, according to your own officials.

Do you think there's a breakdown of trust among IRCC employees, when they don't see any action being taken?

In a recent report, a racialized employee says she reported racist attitudes towards immigration applicants from certain countries, including Cuba and Nigeria, and she is quoted as follows:

That came from the top, how we were instructed to deal with people from certain countries. There was a lot of stereotyping going on...“People from this country, people from that country, they're all liars, you know?”

Again, it is one thing to say you are committed, but after two years with no reprimands, do you not appreciate the fact that employees at IRCC don't have any faith that any change has taken place?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I completely appreciate the perspective, and I'm not going to tell you that all the problems have been solved since the task force was implemented, but I don't think it's fair either to suggest that no action has been taken.

Through the opportunities we're creating to provide training for people, so that they come across these kinds of horrible comments less frequently, to the extent we can continue to boost training opportunities to have more members of the senior leadership team at IRCC come from communities that have historically been marginalized, or through trauma coaching sessions that are being offered for employees, there are quite a few different aspects to this that I think are making a difference, but I'm not here to tell you that all problems have been solved.

We have a lot of work to do, but I think that there has been an honest and good faith attempt to start to address some of these very serious challenges.

[Jasraj Singh Hallan, Conservative, Calgary Forest Lawn, AB]

Again, Minister, I'm speaking on behalf of the IRCC employees who are on some of these records—obviously they don't want to share their names—and people I've talked to, as was mentioned in the same article, about the pressures on racialized employees of IRCC, who are feeling as though even when they go to the bathroom they need to ask. If they take washroom breaks that are too long, they get asked about it, and they're being asked to perform at a higher level.

In the same article, another racialized employee said that there are fewer career advancement opportunities within IRCC for people of colour. He said he noticed over the years a reluctance to promote employees of colour within the department. He said he went through a dozen applications before he got a promotion. There are definitely a lot of problems, and it doesn't seem as though they're coming to an end.

I will move on.

I asked you this question last time with regard to Afghanistan and Ukraine and how people are saying, and rightfully so, that there seems to be a big difference in the processing that's going on and in the priorities. About 10,000 Ukrainians have come here to Canada on a priority basis within a month, but there are still many thousands of Afghans who are stuck there. Recently, through an OPQ, we found out that only about 2,385 Afghans have come here to Canada under the government special refugee program, and that's unacceptable. As you know, the Taliban have ramped up their brutal regime. They're not letting women and young girls go to school anymore. Those Afghans are still frustrated with your government and feel that there's a huge bias against them.

What do you have to say to that?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Madam Chair, I think you signalled that my time is out. I hope these conversations come back up, because I have much to say about this issue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I think they will come back.

We will now move to Ms. Kayabaga.

Ms. Kayabaga, you have six minutes. Please go ahead.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister Fraser, for appearing here at our committee again, and for addressing the many questions we have.

I also just want to highlight the fact that the reports we're talking about today were released before you were a minister, so I know there are some things you are not able to be accountable for.

However, when we are talking about addressing systemic racism in an organization in a Canadian context, what are your thoughts on some of the ways we can do that using the resources and the people who are already in our country? What representation do we need in order to address that systemic racism?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Your comment was generous off the top, Ms. Kayabaga, to point out the timing of some of these problems. I adopt the view that they may not necessarily be my fault, but they are my responsibility and, frankly, my opportunity to address.

To your question about how we can use folks who are here now—or, I would even suggest, within IRCC already—to help address this problem, there is one thing I am struck by. When I come to Ottawa every week and have conversations with people who have different life experiences from mine, who come from a different country of origin or a different ethnic or racial background, the conversation changes. I talk about things differently with different people. We have more informed discussions, and I would like to think we make better decisions.

I had a conversation at a newcomer centre in Alberta during a visit last week, and I raised the fact that there is an incredible spirit of entrepreneurialism among some of the refugees who've come to my community. One of the employees stopped me in my tracks when she said that it's great there is a spirit of entrepreneurialism but that I may not realize, coming from my life experience, that this is driven by the fact that a lot of newcomers or people who come from her community weren't able to land jobs within traditional employment scenarios because they were subjected to racism at the time. To have my eyes opened to something that is so glaringly obvious in retrospect demonstrates to me that if we bring different people from different backgrounds into the conversations, we're going to have healthier discussions and make better decisions.

To your question, a big thing that I think we can do is to adopt training and promotion exercises within the department to ensure that the senior leadership and middle management in a department are not homogenous. To have people who understand the life situations of the people who are applying to come to Canada from different countries, who come from different religious or cultural backgrounds, I think, is one of the chief things we can do.

I don't want to eat up all the time. I have much to say about this, but I'll leave it for your next question.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you. I appreciate your answer, and it kind of flows into my next question.

In order to get to the place of addressing discrimination in IRCC and systemic racism, we have to fight for some policies. I remember being part of the group of people who were asking for the UN Decade for People of African Descent to be something that we implement as a policy. Thankfully, we did that.

Would you agree that we should extend that, because this task force was set up in 2020, and it does not give us enough time to be able to address the issues in IRCC?

Before you answer, I'll throw in another question with that.

I had the opportunity to go to Dakar and talk to IRCC members there, who are currently serving 16 to 26 other countries in the area. They're not able to be physically in the other countries they serve. I wonder what impacts the decisions they're making—which are not informed and have no understanding of the countries they're serving—would have on discrimination or the high refusal rates we've seen in African countries?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

One of the challenges I have is that we want to increase cultural awareness by having, to the extent possible, locally engaged staff who understand the intricacies of what a person may be dealing with who is applying to come to Canada from a given country.

On the flip side of that coin, establishing a physical presence in every country where I would like to have that expertise could significantly hamper the ability of our department to process people efficiently and effectively, given our ambitious immigration targets. Trying to incorporate people who have that expertise into a more centralized system is a really challenging thing to do.

I think we have a unique opportunity—and this is not informed by years of policy work in the department but something I've been personally thinking on—to use some learning during the pandemic. We can actually be tapping into expertise that exists all over the world without necessarily putting up a new building in Dakar or elsewhere. This would allow us to understand those 16 or so other countries that are serviced from that location without necessarily compromising productivity.

However, I'm not ready to implement a new policy along these lines, because we have to understand what the consequences of an approach like that might be.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

Would you be open to receiving information or comments from IRCC workers in these places? I think they have something to say. I wonder if there could be a report through which we could hear from them on—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting, Ms. Kayabaga. Your time is up.

We'll now proceed to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, please begin. You will have six minutes for your round of questioning.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank the minister for making himself available, which frankly is to his credit. He has appeared before the committee on a number of occasions, and that deserves to be noted.

The minister and I have been working together for nearly four weeks, particularly on the issue of Ukrainian refugees and the air bridge. For a change, I'm going to talk to him about another issue that is equally important and causing a bit of difficulty for IRCC.

The day before yesterday, Mr. Gideon Christian spoke about racism at IRCC during his testimony to the committee. He told us that we had to face up to it, even if it was disturbing. Of course, all members of the committee are uncomfortable when it comes to racism, but we can name the problem.

My question is quite simple and I would like a yes or no answer.

Minister, is there racism at IRCC?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

I completely agree with you.

In reality, it's obvious that there are examples of racism not just in one department but across different levels of government. It's a sickness in our society that limits the productivity of human beings who want to fully participate in our communities. IRCC is not immune from that social phenomenon that hampers our success as a nation, and we have to do everything we can to eradicate racism, not just from our department but across government and across our society.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

Are you or are you not comfortable with the use of artificial intelligence and automation, generally, within your department?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Yes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Are you aware of the risks this may pose?