Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 24th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

No—it was six. Your time is up.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Okay. I'm sorry. Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

We will now proceed to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, you have six minutes. Please begin.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thank our witnesses for being here with us today and taking the time to come and speak on this extremely important study.

Ms. Xavier, you are dealing with a real problem of systemic racism at IRCC. I think that is a fact. I think the minister has even expressed his desire that unconscious bias not create discrimination against people who come from different parts of the world.

Who do your officers talk to if they witness racism?

[Caroline Xavier]

Thank you for the question.

As the minister was saying, we take the anti-racism strategy very seriously. We don't want to see harassment or discrimination in the department.

One of the things that is paramount in the department—I've seen it, especially since I've been in the job—is that anyone who sees anything wrong should report it. They can tell their immediate supervisor or the senior officer responsible for internal disclosure of wrongdoing. They can tell our Office of Conflict Resolution, or they can tell our Anti-Racism Task Force.

So there are a number of ways in which employees can report a problem. We recognize that sometimes people may not trust the person they can talk to. That's why we make sure that employees are comfortable bringing these issues to the department.

In my opinion, the situation has improved over the last two years. We are making the process more open and less stigmatizing. It is easier to talk about discrimination and harassment. We are also aware that there are gaps and room for improvement in our department.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I sense that you are sincere.

Despite everything, as you've probably seen or read in reports, some employees say they don't have the tools to file a complaint without fearing negative effects on their career. This is a very sensitive situation, and it does not help us to overcome the problems of racism at IRCC.

How can we do this?

[Caroline Xavier]

You are right. We know that people who are victims of racism or who have had a bad experience are very afraid to speak out about it, for fear of the repercussions on their career.

We have set up what we call trust circles. This refers to a conversation that these people can have voluntarily and directly with senior officials, myself, Deputy Minister Catrina Tapley and others in senior management. We are all prepared to hear from them, to hear about their experiences. This is an opportunity for them to vent. Moreover, no one else knows that they were part of this trust circle. We feel that it is also an opportunity to better understand the problems of the organization.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

If they are concerned that whistleblowing will damage their career, then it means that there have been events where employees have had to blow the whistle on some form of racism and it has affected their career. Otherwise there wouldn't be this fear.

So this means that in the past, people have come forward and reported serious situations, and this had an adverse effect on their career advancement.

Do you agree with me?

[Caroline Xavier]

You are absolutely right.

As the minister said, systemic racism exists throughout government, including in our department. We know that we need to improve the way we deal with these kinds of situations. Having said that, there are certainly people who have experienced some things. People have definitely told us that they have had problems with their career advancement.

That's why we are putting in place concrete measures to help better manage the career advancement of racialized people. We are providing development opportunities and appointing them to acting and other positions. In this way, we are enabling the advancement of racialized individuals at all levels of the department.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I find this discussion very interesting.

If there have been times—as you've seen—when people have had their careers held back because they've spoken out against serious racism, then that means there are people responsible for holding them back.

Who are these people? Have they been fired? Have you met them? Do you have their names?

[Caroline Xavier]

As I said, we definitely know about the situations. We know about them because we have carried out surveys in the department since 2020. One of those surveys was specifically about racism. We then contracted the company Pollara, as we wanted to go more in depth to understand exactly what was happening. The survey was voluntary and anonymous, so we could not know who the persons involved were.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I apologize for interrupting you. I don't want to be rude, but I don't have much time left.

If the people who are responsible for this situation are known to IRCC, have they been met with or fired? Have they been penalized?

[Caroline Xavier]

I can tell you that all the cases that have been brought to our attention have been managed with all the tools at our disposal. We are trying not to ignore the situation. If I or Ms. Tapley are made aware of the situation, we take action.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you. We will now proceed to Ms. Kwan.

Ms. Kwan, you will have six minutes. Please proceed.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The minister spoke of wanting to ensure that IRCC has equitable representation among his staff—both among agents and among medium and upper management positions. Could the officials provide a breakdown of that representation right now, so that we have a baseline on which to evaluate the outcome of this work?

[Caroline Xavier]

As I mentioned previously, we launched our anti-racism task force within the last two years. One thing we did was run a survey. The purpose of that survey was to provide an opportunity to see how we're progressing as a department.

Yes, we're able to provide you with some information with regard to how we're progressing in terms of where the racialized individuals are progressing within their careers. Part of our strategy is to achieve a higher target of individuals throughout the department.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you. I have limited time, so could I just get direct answers to my question?

My question is, can we get the baseline number so we can evaluate this progress? Further to that, will interim progress reports be put on the public record on this work?

[Caroline Xavier]

Yes, we can provide you with the baseline information that we have in our possession.

Part of our strategy is to be able to continue to demonstrate progress on how we're meeting our targets. One thing we're aiming to achieve is for the labour market availability representation within our department, not just the workforce availability. We're aiming to achieve a higher target than what is sometimes expected.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

When can we expect the interim progress report and the final report?

[Caroline Xavier]

I don't want to say that there is a final report, because it's always going to be for us to continue to progress. We have a three-year plan. However, we can at least tell you where we started when we started our strategy, and where we are at this point in time.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Will there be an interim report made public, let's say in a year's time and maybe each year within the three years?

[Caroline Xavier]

Definitely. We are putting out reports on a regular basis.

If you go on the Privy Council Office website, there are calls to action that the clerk put in place—

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you—

[Caroline Xavier]

—and we have responded to that publicly as well.