Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 24th, 2022

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

If you'll indulge me, I promise to make it short, but I want to give a 30-second answer, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, if that's okay.

Yes. If we're operating in a 21st-century context and trying to welcome more than 430,000 permanent residents, we need to use modern tools to make sure we don't create a system that can't handle the capacity our communities so desperately need.

We have to build protections into the use of advanced analytics to ensure we're not discriminating against one group or another. The system we use tries to funnel cases that have no complexities to people who can easily handle them, and we've seen with those cases that don't have complexities an 87% increase in efficiency. However, it's really important that we don't compromise in a way that would allow the system to make decisions or something like that, which could have a discriminatory impact. It's essential that an IRCC officer still makes the final decision on all of these cases.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Yes, but the acceptance rate for international students is 90% at McGill University, while the rate is 21% at the Université du Québec à Trois-Rivières, 29% at the Université du Québec à Rimouski and 40% at the Université du Québec à Chicoutimi. The difference is more pronounced now that IRCC is automating part of the triage process.

Doesn't it bother you that these differences between IRCC acceptance rates for French and English universities are now more pronounced?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I think we have a great opportunity to welcome a lot of francophone newcomers and a lot of francophone international students.

I don't think advanced analytical models are the only source of the problem.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I understand that.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Is that okay? I'm not sure of the expression in French.

There are challenges I see when I look at the applications, in terms of where they come from, for students to study at designated learning institutions that are francophone in nature. It's a big issue for me in Nova Scotia with l'Université Sainte-Anne, and in Quebec, of course, as well, but I wouldn't attribute the issue to just advanced analytics.

I think it provides an opportunity for us to actually cure this differential and bring in more international students, who make excellent permanent residents after they arrive.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

So you're telling us that, while the use of these analytical models doesn't fully explain the problem, it is part of it.

Minister, in November 2021, you promised to personally verify that unconscious biases were not causing civil servants to discriminate against French-speaking Africans.

What is the status of this verification?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

For the sake of clarity, I have not been able to identify that advanced analytics is part of this particular problem. When I look at the applications from certain francophone-speaking countries in certain parts of the world, year to year they're in the rough ballpark of anglophone-speaking countries from the same part of the world.

One of the challenges we have, when we look at the requirement for proof of income, for example, when we're dealing with a country whose economy is not as strong—where the average household income is significantly less than Canada's—are that a lot of people are not admissible to Canada as a result of that particular policy. When we're dealing with French-speaking nations in West Africa, obviously the population is disproportionately Black, and it's a challenge when you look at those differential outcomes.

However, in terms of the English-speaking versus French-speaking, the differential year to year is not as great as I thought it would be. I still think there's a massive opportunity for us to make policy changes, including by introducing the student direct stream to some of these countries, to boost the rate of people who come here and ensure that they're set up for success when they arrive.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

We'll now proceed with Ms. Kwan.

Ms. Kwan, you can please begin, for six minutes.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and thank you to the minister and the officials for returning to the committee.

Witnesses have noted differential actions from IRCC, and they noted that emergency measures will vary depending on where they come from. For example, with the special immigration measures for Ukrainians, they noted that it's much easier for them to come to Canada versus those in other regions who are also in need of getting to safety. They all said that they supported the special measures for Ukraine, but they're concerned that it's not being applied elsewhere.

All of the witnesses agreed that the government should extend those special immigration measures to other regions also experiencing conflict, such as Afghanistan, Yemen, Hong Kong, etc.

Will the minister do as the witnesses have suggested?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I need to learn, to see what the impact of this approach is going to be first. However, there is a reason we've designed this specific program in regard to the situation in Ukraine.

If I want to contrast it to Afghanistan, there are really two major differences. One is the ease with which Ukrainians have safe passage outside of Ukraine to the west and can find a pathway whereby they can be safely processed and go through our biometric screening process as well. There are huge challenges on the ground, but by comparison, in Afghanistan, we're dealing with specific people we've made a commitment to, who are in a territory where the Taliban are not letting them leave the country and they cannot transit safely throughout or outside of Afghanistan.

The second component is that, from our conversations with European counterparts and the Canadian-Ukrainian community, we expect there is a desire to return amongst the vast majority of those who are coming for a temporary period to Canada from Ukraine.

With respect to Afghanistan, I wish the circumstances were the same. I don't have the same hope that it will be safe for the people we're welcoming permanently as refugees to return home one day, despite their potential desire to do so. That's allowed us to create our different responses for the unique circumstances.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you, Minister.

Surely the minister can ensure, for example, that there are biometric centres in neighbouring countries. Even though Afghans would have a tough time getting to the third country without any help from the Canadian government, nonetheless those measures should be in place to allow and to facilitate that. I hope the government will undertake these measures and not just say that we'll watch and see how it goes. Time is of the essence. People cannot wait, and lives hang in the balance.

With respect to third countries, in fact the minister noted that there are specific targets in Afghanistan that he's looking at. I know of one interpreter. He himself got here, and he's working day and night to bring his family here. He was successful in bringing 15 of his family members here: his mother, his father and some of this siblings. However, of the 15, one brother was left behind in Pakistan. Even though his biometrics have been done and approved—all of the screening has been done—somehow he's been left out. Why is that?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

First, on the issue of biometrics in third countries, we have some capacity in different countries and have conversations with partners in the region. We may not have the same prevalence of these application centres that we have pre-existing in certain parts of Europe, but we do pursue and are pursuing that specific strategy. I appreciate your suggestion very much.

I don't have the information for this one specific individual, and I wouldn't be at liberty to talk about an individual case, because sometimes there are complexities on a given file. However, I hate to see families separated, particularly when they've gone through such trauma. If you would like, to the extent that this person is admissible to Canada and we can make some accommodation, then that's something that would be worth following up on.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I will certainly follow up with the minister. I would also note, though, that a number of other families in Pakistan cannot make it to Canada for some strange reason. I would note that for the minister and the officials to look into.

At our last meeting, Professor Christian noted that the Nigerian student express requires Nigerians to prove English-language proficiency, even though English is their official language in Nigeria. It's the official language for all formal studies. Foreign students from Nigeria are exempt from proof of language proficiency in all academic institutions, but not in IRCC. Why is that? Why is there this differential treatment?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I'm sorry; do you mean differential treatment for Nigerians applying to IRCC versus their learning institutions?

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Well, IRCC requires Nigerians to provide language proficiency in English when they are applying for their student visa, even though English is their official language and is the official language of all of their formal studies. All academic institutions recognize that and do not require proof of language proficiency, but IRCC requires them specifically to provide language proficiency.

Why would we do that? Why is there that differential treatment? Do you make other countries whose official language is English provide language proficiency?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Madam Chair, I apologize. I took up some of the member's time, so perhaps you'll allow me to offer her a response despite the fact that the time has expired.

If this is an opportunity for us to streamline the process in a way in which the vast majority of people don't run into a language barrier when they apply, I'd be interested in doing that. The Nigerian student express system has seen a significant increase in approvals overall. If we can improve it further, then I'm interested.

I want to be careful to ensure that we don't jeopardize, particularly for students whose mother tongue may not be English, the important protections that come with someone satisfying the language requirements. To the extent that we can work together to identify opportunities to further increase the acceptance rates for Nigerian students, I think it would be a very positive thing for Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Minister. The time is up. We will now proceed to our second round.

Mr. Genuis, you have five minutes for your round of questioning. Please begin.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Minister.

Minister, following some of the discussion about Afghanistan, I want to ask you about a specific situation. It's a situation I wrote to you about last week. It's one that's very important to people in my constituency.

One of my constituents travelled to Afghanistan, at obviously great personal risk, to help a family that he was acquainted with leave the country. Subsequently, this constituent of mine raised the finances required to privately sponsor this family. They're in Pakistan now, in a very tenuous situation. The couple are human rights defenders. The man is a human rights lawyer and the woman was a teacher at a girls' school. They were prepared to apply. They were told not to submit their application because the navigation unit is not giving pre-approvals right now due to switching systems.

Can you speak to that technical issue? As well, can you advise on whether you'd be prepared to intervene to expedite this case? I think this is a very worthy case and a very serious situation. These folks are in a very tenuous situation in Pakistan right now.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Before I answer, I will say that I have been impressed with your consistency in defending folks internationally for their work to defend human rights. I appreciate it very much.

You'll forgive me, but I'll have to look into the technical issue and provide you with an answer on the back end.

I will go over your letter on the back end of this meeting and provide you with a response. I don't want to prejudge the nature of my intervention, despite the fact that it clearly sounds like a sympathetic case. I would like to apprise myself of all the details and give myself an opportunity to do that in a thoughtful way. I'll use this intervention on your part as an opportunity to dig in deeply and to provide you with a proper response.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Minister. I really appreciate that.

I know a week is a relatively short amount of time in terms of turning around correspondence, and I'm not always that efficient myself, but given the nature of the case and its urgency, I did want to highlight it. Thank you for committing to looking into it and following up on those issues.

I found it interesting that in response to my colleague Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe's question about racism at IRCC, you referred to racism as a “sickness”. I would be more inclined to describe racism as a moral evil, as opposed to a sickness. I suppose the difference is that one implies that it's something that just happens, whereas another implies that there are specific people who are responsible for the things they do and should be held accountable for them.

I was thinking of that description in the context of my colleague Mr. Hallan's pointing out that there have not been consequences for individuals who engage in racist behaviour. I'd like to know if you would agree with my description of racism as a moral evil as opposed to a sickness—maybe it's both—and then also speak to this issue of whether you believe individuals who have engaged in racist behaviour should be held accountable and should be reassigned or removed. What is appropriate in terms of identifying actors and consequences?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Sure, and look, I cannot disagree with your assessment that racism is a moral evil. That's a fair descriptor. It can also be a sickness—I think both things can be true—particularly in the sense that, left unchecked, it has the potential to spread throughout communities and infect the minds of people who may be developing opinions about the world. I think it's important that across society we work with people, starting at a young age, to provide education about equality rights.

In terms of the second aspect to your question, of course, when somebody takes part in behaviour that constitutes a moral evil, it's appropriate to seek some sort of consequence. I want to be careful, though, because I think there are some opportunities to deal with unconscious bias in a way that's maybe different from how we deal with somebody who's specifically aiming to do harm to another person on the basis of their race—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Minister, I'm sorry, but I have 30 seconds left. I want to say that I agree with the distinction you're making between intentional and unconscious behaviour, and I think that is reasonable.

Another colleague asked about why Ukraine is being treated in a different way from Afghanistan. She also mentioned Hong Kong. You didn't speak to the Hong Kong piece of it. Could you speak to whether the kinds of measures being used in Ukraine are being contemplated for Hong Kong, and why or why not?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Sure, and look, in a few seconds, it will be challenging.

Right now, the situation in Ukraine, based on the temporary nature of people wanting to leave and come back when it's safe to do so and the ability to safely exit.... Those are two of the driving forces. To the extent that this proves to be easier, we may be able to repeat that kind of a response elsewhere in the world, but we will want to make sure that the facts mirror the situation in Ukraine before we take such an approach.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Minister.

We will proceed to Mr. Dhaliwal.

Mr. Dhaliwal, you will have five minutes. Please proceed.