Evidence of meeting #17 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Thank you to our witnesses. I don't know who will respond from Rainbow Refugee.
Dr. Sharalyn Jordan Chair, Rainbow Refugee Society
I very much agree that we need to be looking at not just the interpersonal or interactional racism and microaggressions that can occur, but the systemic issue as well. We've heard today how even just how much attention or resources a particular program or stream is given can create massive racist discrepancies.
An ombudsperson would be well positioned to champion that policy overview. For us from Rainbow Refugee, what would be important is that this person have a lens that is truly intersectional, so good critical race analysis as well as having a gender and sexuality analysis to fully reflect the federal government's commitment to a gender-based analysis plus that is intersectional.
Aleks, do you want to add anything?
Co-Executive Director, Programming and Advocacy, Rainbow Refugee Society
Yes, thank you. I just wanted to add that I believe that an ombudsperson would really help in this matter in addressing where we can go when we're seeing there's systemic racism at play, but I also want to emphasize that as we go upwards into the directorship and management levels of IRCC, we don't see ourselves represented. I don't see LGBTQI or racialized migrant people represented in decision-making positions at IRCC, and I feel that they need to go together. We need to have external oversight and an ability to assess what is going on internally in IRCC, and we also need to see representation in the decision-making power positions.
Professor and Member, Ontario Steering Committee, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives
Thank you very much.
I was going to say the same thing. I think that a fix would be to take some of the people who are working in the departments at lower levels and bring them up and give them positions of authority so that they can assess. What results would reassessment of the same applications by racialized people or people from marginalized backgrounds produce?
As a diversity, equity and inclusion consultant, I always say to people that you can't have HR do DEI work. They're not your friends. They're not there for the employee. You need to have an outside person come in and do that. That's why I agree with you. I think an outside objective position on this is really important.
The other thing I really believe in is blind evaluation, blind experimentation. I don't know if you guys know about that, but within academia, within research, we talk about blind experimentation as being really important because it takes away the biases of the researcher. I am a product or a success story of blind examination. In high school—I'm from the U.K. as you can tell from my accent—we got predicted grades from our teachers and then all our exams go to an external examination board for blind examination. I had all Bs, Cs and Ds predicted. I wouldn't be sitting here as Dr. Sabreena Ghaffar-Siddiqui speaking to you all today if I didn't have an external board of examiners marking my final exams in which I received all As. That's just an example of how blind evaluation can produce drastically different results.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
I may be out of time, but if I get another round, or if I don't get another round, I would ask all the witnesses to submit to the committee in writing their suggestions on both short-term and long-term action that needs to be taken.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
Thank you, Ms. Kwan.
We will now get into our second round of questioning. We will have four minutes each for Mr. Genuis and Ms. Lalonde, and then two minutes each for Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe and Ms. Kwan.
Mr. Genuis, I think you will be sharing your time with Mr. Généreux.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
That's right, so I'm going to talk really fast.
Dr. Ghaffar-Siddiqui, some of our determination processes are dependent on UNHCR processes, so if we're going to talk about racism in outcomes, we also need to look at the UNHCR determination processes. Do you have any reflections on whether there is systemic racism or other forms of racism in the UNHCR determination process that we need to take into consideration as well?
Professor and Member, Ontario Steering Committee, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives
I have not evaluated that area but I would be surprised if there was not racism taking place in any department or organization in which the majority of the people are from the majority.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Fair enough.
Are there any other witnesses who have expertise on that point? If not, maybe we could ask future witnesses. I don't want to put anyone on the spot. If people want, they can follow up in writing on that as well.
To the folks at the Rainbow Refugee group, my understanding is that many refugees who come do so through the joint sponsorship mechanism, which is something that I think works very well. It brings together the involvement of private sponsors but it also reduces the burden on them by having government money come to the table, and when you have private or joint sponsorship that provides an opportunity for those sponsoring organizations to advocate and work with individuals who may be experiencing discrimination.
Can you speak to the joint sponsorship model and how you have found it to work in practice?
Co-Executive Director, Programming and Advocacy, Rainbow Refugee Society
Thank you.
I imagine you are talking about the the joint assistance sponsorship program.
Conservative
Co-Executive Director, Programming and Advocacy, Rainbow Refugee Society
The joint assistance sponsorship program is designed especially to bring in people who may have more challenges settling in Canada. They come as government-assisted refugees, and then IRCC has a partnership with a community organization and that community organization provides emotional support and other settlement supports to the person.
Usually those sponsorships last a year or two years. At Rainbow Refugee we've been advocating that racialized trans people in general come through that program or be assigned that program because one year of settlement support is not enough. It's never enough for that to happen.
We also have a cosharing model, which is the Rainbow Refugee assistance partnership. We are the stewards of that partnership, and through the Rainbow Refugee assistance partnership we have 50 cosharing spaces in a year. That means the government provides three months of support and a start-up fund. There's a lot of co-operation between IRCC and—
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
That's great. I'm sorry to cut you off, but I have to share the last bit of my time.
I would just really plug that I think the sharing model between government and private organizations is a great opportunity. It can leverage the best of both worlds. We should think about using that model more.
It's over to you, Mr. Généreux.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Dr. Ghaffar‑Siddiqui, your candour is a breath of fresh air this morning. Frankly, I find it very elegant of you and you're probably right.
Anyway, I have a question for you.
Do you think there's a real difference between a human being and an algorithm in a computer in terms of determining whether someone can, should or might come to Canada?
Professor and Member, Ontario Steering Committee, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives
I have always been in favour of human beings as opposed to algorithms, but when I speak of blind experimentation, maybe that is something that is to be considered. The way I see it is this: Why not try it and see what the results are? Why not try it and then compare? If we use an algorithm, will it produce different results?
At the end of the day, we're talking about human beings, so the preference is for human beings to assess the situations and circumstances of other human beings.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
On the Standing Committee on Official Languages, we're also—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
Unfortunately, Mr. Généreux, the time is up.
We will now proceed to Ms. Lalonde.
Ms. Lalonde, you have four minutes. Please begin.
Liberal
Marie-France Lalonde Liberal Orléans, ON
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I'd like to thank all the witnesses with us this morning, either virtually or in person.
My first question will be for Ms. Ghaffar-Siddiqui, if I may.
The Pollara report indicated the following: “Experiences of racism at IRCC include microaggressions, biases in hiring and promotion as well as biases in the delivery of IRCCs programs, policies and client service.”
In your view, where should the department devote more of its attention in order to identify and resolve instances of microaggression?
Professor and Member, Ontario Steering Committee, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives
Are you asking whether it should be focused on employee experiences and feelings of belonging, or applications...?
Professor and Member, Ontario Steering Committee, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives
Both. Okay.
If employees don't feel a sense of belonging and comfort, and we care about diversity but we don't care about inclusion and equity, then the retention rate of people working in those departments is going to be very low. People are going to come in and then they're going to leave. They're going to come in, get a job, not feel happy and then leave. You're going to lose people, and we need people to stay in order to build that experience and understand the system better. We need those people to provide that cultural translation and move up the ranks to then be the officers who can better assess the applications.
I feel like you have to start with your family. You have to start with the people who are part of your family, which is your department. That family will then have more of the tools necessary to work on the application.
Liberal
Marie-France Lalonde Liberal Orléans, ON
Thank you very much.
In your experience, what forms of microaggression fundamentally impact the decision-making process?
Professor and Member, Ontario Steering Committee, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives
The main point I will make about all of this is that if there's a microaggression.... I need to clarify, in case people don't understand this, that a “microaggression” doesn't mean it's small. All it means is that it happens in small interactions.
When you talk about systemic racism, you talk about it happening on a large scale, with big statistical analyses. With microaggressions, the examinations are more interactive and small-scale. Microaggressions are still really impactful, but they're happening within people's conversations. For example, when somebody hears that “these are the dirty 30 countries” or “people from here are usually liars and cheaters”, the person on the receiving end who is from one of those countries is impacted, because now you are offending them as well. It also shows that you have a bias. You have a feeling towards these people. When you're then assessing the application, how can you tell me that this feeling is not somehow being incorporated into your decision-making? That's why microaggressions are important to consider.
Also, in my studies and my research, I have spoken to respondents who spoke about microaggressions that took place 10 or 15 years ago as if they happened yesterday. The impact of microaggressions is actually quite big and long-lasting.
Liberal
Marie-France Lalonde Liberal Orléans, ON
Thank you.
In the minute I have left, I would like to ask the Rainbow Refugee witness a question.
Now that some time has passed since the SOGIE guidelines were implemented in 2017, how would you evaluate the SOGIE guidelines in reducing the barriers faced by the LGBTQ2+ refugees? In your view, has IRCC improved its refugee decision-making process, ensuring more fairness and respect for those applying for refugee status?