Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 3rd, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I call this meeting to order.

Good morning. Welcome to meeting number 19 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.

Given the ongoing pandemic situation and in light of the recommendations from the health authorities, as well as the directive of the Board of Internal Economy on Thursday, November 25, 2021, to remain healthy and safe all those attending the meeting in person are to maintain two-metre physical distancing and must wear a non-medical mask when circulating in the room. It is highly recommended that the mask be worn at all times, including when seated. Those attending must maintain proper hand hygiene by using the provided hand sanitizer in the room.

Please refrain from coming to the room if you are symptomatic.

As a reminder, all comments should be addressed through the chair. When you are not speaking, your microphone should be on mute and your camera must be on.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we will continue our study on differential outcomes in Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada decisions.

I would like to welcome our witnesses.

We have today as witnesses officials from the Department of Citizenship and Immigration: Caroline Xavier, associate deputy minister; Tara Lang, director general, central network; and Farah Boisclair, director, anti-racism task force.

Before we go on, Ms. Kwan is raising her hand.

Go ahead, Ms. Kwan.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Before we begin, I would like to raise a concern with officials and ask for their explanation and response regarding the situation.

During a meeting held at this committee on February 15, which was on processing timelines and acceptance rates, I made a request to IRCC department officials to table, by the end of that month, a breakdown of application backlogs in all streams. When I made that request, Mr. Daniel Mills, the senior assistant deputy minister of operations, said, “I will be happy to provide that information because I have it here on hand.”

Even though Mr. Mills clearly indicated that he already had the information on hand and I requested that the information be tabled by the end of the month, it took 44 more days after the deadline for that information to be tabled. The committee received it on April 13.

However, nearly a month before IRCC's response to the committee, the CIC News website published tables that were provided by IRCC in response to a media request in March. These contained the exact same breakdown requested by me at the committee meeting. The data IRCC provided to them was also more current, with updated figures as recent as March 17, 2022, while the information provided to the committee was current to December 31, 2021.

House of Commons Procedure and Practice notes:

The Standing Orders state that the standing committees have the power to order the production of papers and records, another privilege that is rooted in the Constitution and which is delegated by the House. In carrying out their responsibility to conduct studies and inquiries, standing committees often have to rely on a wide array of papers to aid them in their work.

It is therefore extremely concerning that IRCC is providing timely responses to media requests while withholding document requests—which an IRCC official explicitly said were already on hand—from this committee, which has a legal mandate to study its affairs. This constitutes, in many ways, a breach of privilege by preventing parliamentarians from being able to do their work.

I should note that it's often clear that the text of previous IRCC responses were written shortly after the request was made but took months to make it to the committee. I'm interested to know who was blocking that and why there was such a delay.

Madam Chair, I would like to ask officials to table a response as to why it took so long to provide information they said they already had to the committee, while providing more up-to-date information on shorter notice in response to media inquiries. I ask them to also provide a timeline indicating where the document was held up, why the document was held up and any email records relating to responding to that request. I would like to get a response regarding IRCC's delay in sending documents requested by this committee until the information is out of date, while more quickly providing more up-to-date information in response to the media.

This is not acceptable, Madam Chair. We have officials coming before us whose job is to answer our questions and accept undertakings, per a motion. If this is the approach they are taking, it is not good enough. I want to state that very clearly.

I would like to get a clear explanation from officials, tabled to the committee, as to why this happened. Furthermore, Madam Chair, I have a list of items for which I am still awaiting responses. I painstakingly put together a binder of all the undertakings that I have requested from officials. I have a series of them for which I have yet to receive a response.

I can put all of this on the record, unless the officials have actually tracked them to see where the responses are. We're supposed to get this information so we have it in advance of writing our reports. In many instances, that deadline passes and we don't have that information.

We're now into another study with respect to differential treatment. This is all kind of related, so it is absolutely essential that we get this documentation before we begin that work. Otherwise, we will not have sufficient information to proceed. That's a disservice not only to the committee and our members but also to the community that is waiting for answers, Madam Chair.

I will ask for your direction on whether I should read into the record the list of all the items that I have not yet received or whether officials will actually track that information down and provide it to us in a timely fashion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Ms. Kwan. With regard to the request you have made, for which the information has not yet come, the clerk has prepared a table for me. I will get in touch with the department and follow up and make sure that those requests that are still pending are processed as soon as possible.

Let me consult the clerk on how we'll deal with your other question, and I will respond.

Ms. Kwan, if you can read into the record the undertakings that you are still waiting for, we will have the department respond on those. Thank you.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

All right, then; I will read into the record the pieces that are still missing.

This was my question to officials:

Is the minister still exercising his authority to bring in special procedures secretly?

This was in reference to Afghan processing. I indicated that I was being very specific:

I'm not talking about general immigration measures. There are some specific actions that the ministry is taking that are not made public. People do not know what those specific actions might be, what it would look like or whom it would apply to. Is that still being done by the ministry right now?

I would like to get a response, then, from the minister or from the department with respect to that. That's a request that I've made and have not received a response on.

The other piece I asked for reads as follows:

Ms. Campbell Jarvis told us at committee that there is an IRCC playbook used as a level of oversight for bias in IRCC. Could the officials table this playbook and also provide documentation or information on how it is being used by officials?

That has not yet been received.

There was another document:

To what extent has IRCC processed the emails that Afghans were directed to send to the government? In other words, how many of those emails have received a response from IRCC, and how many are being processed? By response, I don't mean the automatic response they get.

I also asked this:

Perhaps I can get the officials to send those numbers in....If I can get in detail for the committee the numbers [of] how many applications have been processed, how many of them have been completed, and how many of them are still waiting for completion, I would appreciate it.

That has not yet been received.

I continued:

What about the applications for people who are not interpreters or collaborators, which is to say those who may have family members who are here in Canada and who have connections that way? If any of those are being processed at all, how many...?

I asked:

If I could get those specific numbers, not “half”—

which was the response I got,

—but exact numbers and under which category, that would be appreciated. Perhaps [that] could be submitted to the committee then.

That has not yet been received.

I asked this as well:

Could the officials provide a breakdown of that representation right now, so that we have a baseline on which to evaluate the outcome of this work?

I asked if we could get the baseline number so we could evaluate the progress, and further to that, if interim progress reports would be put on the public record. I have not received a response.

If you're wondering, Madam Chair, what I'm referring to in terms of that representation, it's referring to equitable representation amongst staff at IRCC, both agents and among medium and upper management positions. One of the key issues is to actually have a baseline of evaluation so that we know where things are. If there's going to be improvement or changes down the road, we need to be able to see it. I have not received that data, or the committee has not.

I asked for other information:

If you can table for the committee, then, the timelines of when that further study will be done and the mandate for those studies, I would appreciate [it].

That is in reference to independent studies. Ms. Caroline Xavier had explained to the committee that “further independent studies” were being planned on this strategy. I would like to know the timeline with respect to that. I have not yet received a response to those questions.

The other issue is that I have asked officials to provide the pathways to the committee. The pathways are in reference to a question around Afghans and other racialized minorities that are in Ukraine. As it stands right now, as far as we can tell, the immigration measures do not apply to them. The special Ukraine immigration measures do not apply to them. I asked this question, and Ms. Caroline Xavier responded that “the options and pathways exist for them to be able to indicate that, and we would be able to assist them”. I was asking what pathways, and for the officials to table that. I have not yet received that information.

Those are all of the undertakings that.... Sorry, there's one more. There's one last piece that is missing. It asks for the work being done by the department to coordinate and facilitate the generosity of Canadians who wish to help Ukrainians arriving in Canada. I was asking for information with respect to that, and we have not yet received it.

Those are all the undertakings that are still to be provided to the committee, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Ms. Kwan.

Is it possible for the officials to respond to the issues and concerns raised by Ms. Kwan?

Ms. Xavier, would you like to say something about this?

[Caroline Xavier, Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration]

I really take note of the undertakings and the comments made by the member of the committee with regard to the outstanding undertakings. I can assure you that there is no way that we are trying to be preventive in doing this. We will ensure that the undertakings are responded to in a more effective and quicker manner.

I have many more answers. If the member would like, I could proceed to answer throughout the session today, which could be another way to get some of those responses sooner rather than later, if that's helpful.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you. I'm going to respond to that.

These undertakings were asked for prior to this committee, and they should have been provided to this committee. Just now we heard from the officials that they can provide us with the information as we engage in this meeting. I have six minutes, Madam Chair, to question officials, and time runs just like that, and then if I'm lucky, I might get another round.

It's simply not acceptable. Here we are with yet another example of officials saying on the record that they have the information, but somehow, and I don't know why, they have not presented it. With this kind of practice, we are heading directly into a question of privilege being breached. I hope that is not the case. I hope that I can get full answers and acceptable answers from the officials. I hope that this practice will not continue.

More to the point, how is it possible that committee members ask for information that staff say they have readily on hand, and it's not provided to us after 44 days from the request? That information is then provided to the media, and it's more up-to-date information to boot. Goodness gracious, what are we doing here?

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Ms. Kwan.

Ms. Xavier, I would request that all of those undertakings for which the committee is still waiting for answers from the officials be provided as soon as possible. If the information is there, for the functioning of the committee, it would be appropriate if those answers are provided to the committee members as soon as possible.

[Caroline Xavier]

Absolutely, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Ms. Kwan, please go ahead.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

For clarity, Madam Chair, I really want to know who blocked the information. I don't believe it was staff. I think someone else is blocking that information. I would like to know who blocked that information. Who made the determination to delay the tabling of the information that staff said, on the record, that they readily had available?

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Ms. Kwan.

I've requested that the officials provide the information to the committee members as soon as possible. I will follow up with the clerk. We will make sure that we follow up with the department to ensure that the information is sent to the clerk of the committee as early as possible

We can now go to the opening remarks by officials. You will have five minutes for your opening remarks.

Ms. Xavier, please proceed.

[Caroline Xavier]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and good afternoon.

I am pleased to join the committee, and I would like to take a moment to acknowledge that the land from which I'm joining you today is the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe nation.

As associate deputy minister with Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, I recognize there is no institutional tolerance for racism or discrimination and that IRCC must be committed to diversity and inclusion.

To inform the committee how the department is pursuing this principle, I'd like to look back at what we have been accomplishing recently through our anti-racism initiatives.

I want to add that I have personally noticed a shift this year at IRCC. We have delved deeper into more complex aspects of racism, and many more participants have respectfully but frankly challenged the practices of the government and the department than had been the case in past years.

For example, on February 11 we held an IRCC all-staff session to discuss systemic racism within IRCC policies and programs. It was one of the few times I've seen people talk so openly about the history of systemic racism and its lasting impacts on our programs and policies, specifically the temporary foreign worker program. It felt like we were finally confronting systemic racism in our own backyard, acknowledging it for what it has been.

On February 18, we held an employee town hall with guest speaker Dr. Rachel Zellers—a lawyer and scholar who focuses on race and diversity—as a chance to discuss vocabulary for leaders to use when faced with resistance, ignorance and questions relating to race.

It certainly was an event with profound timing, given the police actions against the protests in downtown Ottawa that were taking place that same day.

Also in February, we joined with colleagues from Global Affairs Canada, The Department of National Defence and the Department of Justice to mark the International Day for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination and to hear from Dr. Robert Livingston of the Harvard Kennedy School.

As well, we have taken action through various trust circles with indigenous, Black and racialized employees, in addition to trauma workshops and other gatherings, to give participants the opportunity to share their experiences with leaders, such as myself, without fear of reprisal.

We are also employing disaggregated data collected at IRCC. It provides us with the ability to clearly spot disparities and to set a baseline from which we can measure progress so that we can see if we are actually addressing systemic biases that may affect not only our employees but our clients, policies, decisions, and service delivery.

All this is more than just talk. I am convinced that our actions to address anti-racism are producing results and that our employees at IRCC are developing a new competency to examine our business lines and processes through an anti-racism lens.

This tells me change is beginning—that behaviours and our culture are evolving. Of course, we are all at different points in our journeys to learn about racism.

However, I believe that all employees and especially leaders in the organization are truly understanding how fundamental diversity and inclusivity are now, and will be, to achieving our mandate.

Reaching these conclusions about race may be difficult and uncomfortable, but we must address them, because some employees at IRCC still feel they face systemic racism.

Madam Chair, looking forward, the next phase for IRCC will be to build on these efforts by pulling the pieces together into a departmental strategy and action plan with performance indicators to hold ourselves accountable. We hope to release the next phase of the strategy and action plan to employees and stakeholders by the middle of 2022.

In addition, IRCC has developed a quarterly anti-racism tracker to monitor the department's progress and to transparently report on it to employees, deputies and the minister, who has expressed a keen interest in keeping abreast of our collective efforts.

Madam Chair, I do want to stress to the committee that our work at IRCC is still a work in progress. And as we move forward with it, we will continue to be flexible and we will strengthen diversity and inclusion in our workplace and workforce.

The key principle is that achieving greater diversity and equity is not only the right thing to do, but it is the smart thing to do. We have an obligation to our employees and to all Canadians to do better, and we will.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Ms. Xavier.

We will now go to a round of questioning.

Before we begin, I just want to bring to everyone's attention that yesterday we celebrated Eid and I brought baklava from Scarborough for everyone. Members and the staff should have a bite. This is one of the success stories. This business, Crown Pastries, was started by a Syrian refugee family in Scarborough a few years ago, and now that's the best place for baklava in the GTA, so please do try it.

We will start the first round with—

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Madam Chair, I have a point of order.

I am unable to enjoy the baklava here in Saskatoon. How can we rectify that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Let me know when you are in Ottawa. I will make sure to bring it with me.

Mr. Ali, you've raised your hand.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Yes, Madam Chair. Mr. Redekopp has asked the same question. I was thinking of it. You brought it there. It should have been mailed out or maybe a courier service should have been provided to the members who are not in person there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Everyone can enjoy it next time.

We will now go our round of questioning. Our first member is Mr. Genuis.

Mr. Genuis, you will have six minutes. Please begin.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

To those members who are complaining about not having access to the excellent food, I'd say, “You snooze, you lose.” I'll be thinking of you while I eat it.

I want to highlight in my remarks the issue of transparency. Some of our concerns on that have been well articulated by Ms. Kwan. There's some additional information, and a number of witnesses have told us that in terms of understanding the problems of racism within IRCC, it's very important that they have data to look at.

I'm going to ask a series of questions. I'm not asking you to provide the answers to these questions; I'm asking you to tell me if you are able to provide these documents in writing. Hopefully the answer will be yes. I'll then be able to proceed through this list.

The first thing that we have been asked for by witnesses is any and all documents and data in the department's possession that show acceptance and rejection rates for visa applications, broken down by processing office, application category, country of origin of the applicant, race and religion. Are you able to provide that data to the committee?

[Caroline Xavier]

Thank you for the request.

We are able to provide an answer to that data. What I want to add as a caveat is whether or not I can break it down to the level that you've asked for with regard to granularity. We would have to get back to you, but we can definitely tell you the rates of rejection and acceptance as you've requested, to a certain level.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

To clarify, what I'm asking for is not the provision of data that you don't have, but all of the data in your possession that relates to that question.

I think a 30-day timeline is reasonable. Would you agree that for these requests a 30-day timeline is reasonable?

[Caroline Xavier]

Yes, I think that should work.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

We've been asked for a list of which visa offices currently use advanced analytics to triage applicants, and which applications they are used for. Are you able to provide that in the same time frame?

[Caroline Xavier]

I am able to provide you with what applications are using advanced analytics. The part that I'm less certain about is whether I can tell you which offices use them, just because the applications are more centralized, and then various officers use them across the country and the globe. It may not be specific to an office, if you see what I mean.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay—