Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 1st, 2022

[Francis Brown Mastropaolo]

We need to look at that a little more. The solution is not actually one-dimensional, in our view. It's not a matter of doing one program or making adjustments. After an analysis by the stakeholders, especially IRCC and the educational institutions, we need to establish how best to increase approval rates in this regard.

So I would not venture to say that it would be the solution.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Ms. Kwan, your time is up.

We will now proceed to our second round of questioning.

Mr. Seeback, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I'm actually going to give my time to Monsieur Godin.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, my dear colleague.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to ask all three witnesses a question.

The topic of our study is the recruitment and acceptance rates of foreign students in Quebec and Canada. It was probably motivated by a somewhat negative picture of the situation.

In your opinion, is Canada losing its leadership and its appeal in the education of international students, and more particularly with francophone students?

Ms. Bezo, you can answer first. Then Mr. Davidson and Mr. Brown Mastropaolo can answer as well.

[Larissa Bezo]

Yes. In fact, with the rates of rejection that we are seeing in particular much more prevalently in Africa and francophone Africa, that's certainly serving as a limitation in terms of that pathway for students to come and to study. That's not even to speak about further pathways that might exist post-graduation. This does represent a lost opportunity. As I had shared initially, broadly speaking, we are speaking about a half a million rejections since 2016. This is a very substantive number of prospective individuals who have the opportunity to make a difference, whether in a Canadian community or an international community context.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Bezo. I apologize for stopping you, but I have very little time. I understand the point you are making.

Mr. Davidson, do you have a quick answer? I would like to ask another question afterwards.

[Paul Davidson]

We are in a very competitive world, so we have to be at our absolute top of the game. We have two things to keep in mind. One is that Africa is still an emerging market for many countries. We have an opportunity to be best in class and to attract the best students we can.

The second thing I just want to underscore, because it came up earlier, was to keep in mind that international students create opportunities for Canadian students. They broaden the choice of programs that they can study. They broaden the opportunities for Canadians students to learn. It's in our economic interest, our education interest, to make sure we have the best student attraction system we can.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Do you want to add anything, Mr. Brown Mastropaolo?

[Francis Brown Mastropaolo]

Yes, I would like to give a quick answer.

Canada really is losing its leadership in attracting international students. You just have to look at some of the things that are happening in terms of student recruitment, such as the diversification of countries of origin or the refusal rates for applications from French-speaking Africa. As Mr. Davidson mentioned, we are talking about emerging countries that are in the midst of redesigning or reforming their education systems. We are talking about a large youth population that is demanding to be educated.

I do feel that we are losing our leadership, particularly with those countries in Africa, but also with other French-speaking regions.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Brown Mastropaolo. So you all agree.

Now I would like anyone to jump in with an answer.

How do we stop the bleeding? Let's say you had the power to make decisions in the matter. What immediate steps would you take?

Let's start with Ms. Bezo.

[Larissa Bezo]

I think there are some practical operational issues that need to be addressed. The question about really unpacking what is happening with the discretionary aspect of decision-making certainly needs to be explored.

As I mentioned in my comments initially, I think there needs to be [Technical difficulty--Editor] algorithms that we're currently using to screen candidates to make sure that there is no—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

You have one minute left.

[Larissa Bezo]

Further, as we look at the processes related to how we're engaging, I think there is more work to be done to make sure that there isn't any kind of structural bias within those kinds of processes. There are some concrete solutions we can use to address that, through blind review, and looking at ways in which we can compare identical cases across visa centres to make sure that we are staying with a consistent approach and one that is in alignment with Canadian values across the globe.

Thank you.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Bezo.

Mr. Davidson, I don't know whether this question can be answered in a few words, but do you have a short answer for us?

[Paul Davidson]

I would concur with Larissa's comments about the frontline operational realities. It's very important that we invest in that, very important that we train in that and very important that we align with the policy intent.

The additional comment I would make is that we—

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Madam Chair, I cannot hear the interpretation anymore.

I can hear it now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Could you just repeat the last few sentences? I think there was some interpretation issue. Please go ahead.

[Paul Davidson]

I want to concur with what Larissa has just said about the frontline operational issues. We need to invest in those front lines, we need to train on those front lines, and we need to make sure that they're aligned with the policy intent of the Government of Canada.

The other thing I want to illustrate is that, over the decades, the higher education sector, working together with the federal government and provincial governments, has demonstrated that we can attract students from new markets in a big way, and in particular, francophone Africa. This is an opportunity for all of Canada to realize.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you.

We will now proceed to MP Ali.

MP Ali, you will have five minutes for your round of questioning.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here.

My question is to all witnesses.

As you know, Canada is in a competition to entice people from around the world to come to study in Canada. We ask them to spend an enormous amount of money to do so. Among the inducements we offer them to study in Canada is the opportunity to work part time while studying and the opportunity to stay in Canada after completing their studies and to work in Canada as part of a pathway to permanent residence and ultimately citizenship.

Recently, a couple of cases of applicants from Pakistan came to my attention. IRCC refused one of the applications on the grounds that it was not satisfied that the student would leave Canada following their studies, based on four reasons, namely “the limited employment prospect in your country of residence; your current employment situation; the purpose of your visit; your family ties in Canada and in your country of residence”.

Isn't this exactly the type of person we expect to respond to our recruitment efforts?

In the other case, the applicant had completed a B.A. in business and wanted to come to Canada to study for an M.B.A. The IRCC officer wrote, “Submissions...do not provide a compelling explanation of why the applicant seeks to pursue Masters Management for future career path”. The officer's notes also state that the applicant “seeks study at a Christian university when the passport of applicant states religion as Islam, and submissions of applicant does not address the divergence of religious beliefs”.

In Ontario, it is not considered unusual that some non-Catholic families, including some Muslim families, prefer to send their children to Catholic separate schools.

Doesn't it seem as though sometimes we are sabotaging our own effort to attract international students? What would you suggest to address these issues?

[Paul Davidson]

I'll jump in, and I'm sure Larissa and Francis will want to join as well.

I think those very real-life examples are very pertinent to the committee. Of course, we're not going to comment on individual circumstances, but to go back to an earlier question in this conversation, they give you a flavour of what students are experiencing.

Again, what this comes back to is that we can have political commitment, and we do, because all parties in the House are supportive of positive immigration for Canada, which is really a good thing and a competitive thing. Therefore, we have political support. We have policy support in that we have a very attractive pathway for international students to come to Canada, to study, to work and to stay. International competitors are looking at our tools, and they're copying them and they're making them more generous. We have to stay competitive.

Then we have the operational realities of visa processing times. We want to ensure the integrity of the process, but the decision-making authority of the frontline immigration officer is real. We have to make sure that all staff representing Canada are well trained and have been invested in what we're trying to achieve as a country, because there was a time—and I've been in the field for over two decades now—where we wanted all international students to return to their country of origin. If you even expressed a hint that you wanted to stay, you'd be immediately rejected. Now I think we have a much more flexible approach and one that works for Canada's advantage and also for the countries of origin.

Those real-life examples are searing, and I'm glad the committee is doing this study and will be asking IRCC about how they would respond to those kinds of challenges.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Would any other witness like to jump in?

[Larissa Bezo]

Sure. Perhaps I'll add to what Paul has shared.

I agree. Similar to the example you shared, we have examples of Afghan students who have applied from a third country and were told that they're being rejected because they cannot prove that they're going to return to their home country—which from a sensitivity standpoint as a country that has opened up a pathway for resettlement is problematic, and there is a very direct human impact.

We know of examples, many of them, where students are applying and these are multi-year processes, where some have applied even seven or eight times and have continually been rejected. We need to put those students and these opportunities in context such that our values—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Could you please wrap up.

[Larissa Bezo]

—[Inaudible-Editor] we were able to be fair and consistent, but we were also treating those students with respect and making sure that the way in which we do this contributes to that Canadian brand and reputation abroad.

Thank you.