Evidence of meeting #27 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was insurance.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Howard Ramos  Professor, Chair of the Department of Sociology, Western University, As an Individual
Arthur Sweetman  Professor, McMaster University, As an Individual
Ravi Jain  Steering Committee Member, Canadian Immigration Lawyers Association
Saeeq Shajjan  Founder and Lawyer, Shajjan & Associates
Kyle Hyndman  Chair, Immigration Law Section, The Canadian Bar Association

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Good morning, everybody. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 27 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.

Given the ongoing pandemic situation and in light of the recommendations from health authorities, as well as the directive from the Board of Internal Economy of Thursday, November 25, 2021, to remain healthy and safe, all those attending the meeting in person are to maintain a two-metre physical distancing and must wear a non-medical mask when circulating in the room. It is highly recommended that the mask be worn at all times. Members must maintain proper hand hygiene by using the provided hand sanitizer in the room and are asked to refrain from coming to the room if they are symptomatic.

This is a reminder that all comments should be addressed through the chair. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute and your camera must be on.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, May 4, 2022, we will resume consideration of Bill C-242, an Act to amend the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, regarding temporary resident visas for parents and grandparents. Today, we will be hearing from witnesses in this first panel on Bill C-242.

On behalf of the members of the committee, I would like to welcome our witnesses for today's meeting. We are joined by Howard Ramos, professor and chair of the department of sociology from Western University; and Arthur Sweetman, professor, McMaster University.

Each witness will have five minutes for their opening remarks, and then we will go into rounds of questioning.

Professor Ramos, you may begin. You have five minutes for your opening remarks.

June 7th, 2022 / 11:05 a.m.

Dr. Howard Ramos Professor, Chair of the Department of Sociology, Western University, As an Individual

Good morning. Thank you for the invitation to present to this committee.

The remarks I will share with you are based on research that I conducted on parent and grandparent immigrants, published in the Canadian Ethnic Studies journal in 2012, and it looks at what parents and grandparents contribute as well as some observations on demographic and policy issues related to newcomers and their extended families.

In talking with you, there are three basic points that I would like to share. The first is that parents and grandparents make significant economic contributions to Canadian society as well as non-economic ones that are often overlooked in the discussion. Second, newcomers are highly mobile and skilled. Offering a viable means for them to be with their elders and extended family will anchor them in their communities. Three, when considering improving access to family through super visas, it's important to consider the pragmatics of the visa option versus more long-term options to gain permanent residency.

Let me expand on each of these three points.

First, the research I conducted with Madine VanderPlaat and Yoko Yoshida that was published in the Canadian Ethnic Studies journal recognizes that Canada has increasingly favoured immigration policies based on human capital theory as well as economic outcomes, often at the cost of other pathways. While immigration is on the increase, there has been a downward trend in the number of family class entrants admitted to the country over the last few decades. The group most affected is sponsored parents and/or grandparents, who are also the most vulnerable to criticism against family class immigration.

Largely, the discussion on family class immigration is centred on the perceived lack of potential economic contributions of these immigrants. Such a focus, however, overlooks the feminized nature of this type of migration and the many non-economic contributions that immigrants make.

Using the multinomial logistic regression of the longitudinal survey of immigrants to Canada, we examined both the economic and non-economic impacts and contributions of sponsored parents and grandparents compared to immigrants of a similar age migrating under other immigration categories.

What we found was that sponsored parents and grandparents make significant economic contributions to Canadian society as well as non-economic ones. Many of the parents and grandparents take up paid employment, and this increases over their duration in Canada. We also found that parents and grandparents make a number of non-economic contributions such as caring for family and offering related family supports. This is in line with other research that shows that family migrants help with emotional support, child care, elder care and helping the household more generally and, in the case of small business, they often help out with small businesses as well.

Our research also showed that parent and grandparent immigrants are younger than most people expect. The average age was roughly 60 years old for both the parents and the grandparents combined. What this means is that many of the parents who come to Canada are in their fifties, and some are even in their mid to late forties when newcomers are younger. This means that they have quite a bit of working life left in their careers, if they choose to pursue them.

The second point that I want to emphasize is that, given the supportive roles that parents and grandparents offer newcomers, they potentially play an anchoring role that will help newcomers put down more long-term roots in their communities. Research shows that, once a person has migrated, they are more likely to migrate again. Canada attracts highly skilled newcomers who have options to move within Canada, but they are also highly mobile and have the option to move outside of Canada. As people age and their parents and grandparents also age, this creates a pull factor for newcomers to leave the country to tend to their parents and/or grandparents.

Having the opportunity to have parents or grandparents join newcomers creates an anchor effect. It removes that pull factor that might draw them out of the country. It is also an anchor in that parents and grandparents are often less mobile than their children because of their age and other socio-economic factors. This can potentially play an important role in anchoring newcomers to communities that experience high rates of out-migration such as those in Atlantic Canada, the Prairies, rural communities or even in the north.

The third point that I wanted to expand on is something that you already know, which is that sponsoring and connecting with family is one of the biggest concerns newcomers face after they arrive in Canada—

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

I'm sorry for interrupting, Mr. Ramos. Your time is up. You will have an opportunity to talk further in the rounds of questioning.

We will now proceed to Mr. Sweetman, professor at McMaster University.

Mr. Sweetman, please begin. You will have five minutes for your opening remarks.

11:10 a.m.

Professor Arthur Sweetman Professor, McMaster University, As an Individual

Thank you for inviting me to address this committee.

Allowing parents and grandparents to travel to Canada is clearly beneficial to their families. My comments today, therefore, focus on a few insurance-related issues that will likely need to be addressed, or at least considered, assuming this bill moves forward. The matters I will raise are forward looking and concern implementation.

My comments focus on the health insurance required by current ministerial instruction, although this may have implications for other aspects of the bill.

The insurance focuses on emergency care and is required to be valid for at least one year from the date of entry. My understanding is that, in practice, it's difficult to purchase this insurance at present for a period of longer than one year. If a stay lasts longer than one year, the insurance needs to be renewed or new insurance needs to be purchased. At present, as I understand it, the federal government does not monitor renewals and related issues.

The purpose of insurance is to pool payments and costs so as to reduce risk. However, one risk that's not mitigated in the current framework is the year-to-year risk. Although we hope this does not occur, if, for example, a parent or a grandparent experiences an expensive health event in the first year of a stay, the price of insurance in the second year would almost certainly be much higher. This risk is, perhaps, manageable for a two-year stay, but if the duration of the stay is increased, the risk of a very large year-to-year increase in health insurance prices grows. If the length of stay is to be increased, the non-trivial risk associated with large price increases for insurance renewal needs to be considered now.

One option would be to require a longer minimum period of coverage. Indeed, the coverage could be for the full length of the stay, with an opt-out clause for parents and grandparents who decide to return home early. Of course, payment need not be up front. I can imagine various alternative sets of requirements regarding the structure of multi-year contracts. Perhaps, for example, minimum price increases across the years could be required as a prerequisite for ministerial approval.

This would give some amount of multi-year certainty to the sponsoring families, as well as their parents and grandparents. Obviously, this goes well beyond the text of the legislation, but the issues—even if you disagree with my points for discussion—are ramifications of the proposed legislation. They're likely going to be quite important for some families and are best considered in advance.

As an economist, I'm all in favour of competition to bring down prices for the benefit of consumers. A key issue in expanding health insurance purchase options to include international competitors is to ensure that the change achieves its desired goal with minimal negative side effects. As a health economist, I recognize that one of the strengths of Canadian health care is that it has modest administrative costs. If the new extended-stay super visa insurance market is not well designed and regulated, the associated administrative costs might increase noticeably and the legislation's goal of reducing insurance costs for consumers might be partly or even largely undone.

In particular, one way that insurers in some jurisdictions seek to keep insurance prices low is to—how shall I say this—interact rather aggressively with health care providers. Canadian hospitals and other health care providers have limited experience with aggressive insurance providers. Such activities increase administrative costs. In considering implementation, someone needs to think very carefully about guidelines for the minister-approved list of insurers that are appropriate for the Canadian context so as not to generate excessive administrative costs. This is because, in the end, I expect that those buying insurance for parents and grandparents and/or Canadian taxpayers would need to pay such administrative costs.

Finally, my expectation is that adding insurance companies to the proposed ministerial list of approved firms will not be nearly as difficult as removing such companies for cause. Anyone developing guidelines for adding insurers to some approved list needs to think carefully and, again, in advance about the process of removing insurers from the list. One challenge is that this requires monitoring non-payment and related issues, which requires the co-operation of provincial governments.

Of course, any insurance guidelines for foreign insurers, especially American and Mexican, need to meet all the requirements of USMCA and other trade agreements. This could also have important implications for Canadian insurers.

In conclusion, my view is that good intentions do not, on their own, make good policy. Careful and diligent advanced planning and high-quality execution are also usually required. I am attempting to think about some of the challenges that might arise where advanced planning can improve outcomes.

Thank you very much.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you, Mr. Sweetman.

We will now proceed to our round of questioning. We will begin our first round with Mr. Seeback.

Mr. Seeback, please begin. You have six minutes.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Mr. Ramos, when you talk about the significant economic benefits of parents and grandparents and then look at the low-income cut-off, which seems to suggest that parents and grandparents are, in fact, an economic burden on Canadian society, what would you say about that?

11:15 a.m.

Professor, Chair of the Department of Sociology, Western University, As an Individual

Dr. Howard Ramos

I am so glad you asked that question, because that was part of the third point I wasn't able to share. One of the assumptions we make about parents and grandparents is that they're dependent, whereas when we look at the migrants who are coming, we see that they're often coming from upper middle-class backgrounds and professional backgrounds, often with parents of a considerable degree of wealth.

We need to begin to question whether or not we should be looking at the sponsor alone or also at the wealth and viability of the parents when they come. For many of the parents, especially for migrants coming from India or China, they have considerable wealth before they come to Canada. I think it's important to look at both sides of the equation and not look at simply the assumption that the newcomer is going to be sponsoring their parent. That parent actually could be sponsoring the newcomer as much as the other way around.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Part of what this bill, I hope, looks at is that, when someone is very new to Canada, they may have not achieved the economic success of others. They're the people, I think, who are most affected by the low-income cut-off. I really want to get your view. Do you think the low-income cut-off actually provides any protection to Canadians? Is Canada at risk if a family has a $30,000 annual income, and they bring a parent or grandparent here?

11:20 a.m.

Professor, Chair of the Department of Sociology, Western University, As an Individual

Dr. Howard Ramos

That's a very important point to make, which is that newcomers face a labour market disruption when they land in Canada, and it often takes a number of years to overcome that gap.

One of the issues with the LICO is that it's also pinned to the number of people in the household. The more people you have in the household, the more restrictive that becomes. I think it's very prudent to begin to question whether that's an appropriate check and balance. As I was saying before, I think one of the ways to look at that is to look at the wealth of the actual parent migrating as well.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Thank you for that.

I have one other thing, and I'm wondering if you looked at this. I haven't had the pleasure of reading any of your papers.

New Canadians across the cultural spectrum will often make remittances back to their home countries. In fact, I know there are significant remittances. I was having a discussion with the ambassador from Kosovo last night, and I think he said that somewhere in the nature of $2 billion to $3 billion a year comes back into Kosovo from remittances outside the country.

I'm sure that's happening here in Canada. Have you ever factored in the fact that having parents and grandparents here for extended periods of time would mean those remittances are not going back to the country of origin, and therefore there's an additional economic benefit here in Canada by keeping those funds here?

11:20 a.m.

Professor, Chair of the Department of Sociology, Western University, As an Individual

Dr. Howard Ramos

In my own research I haven't looked at remittances, but I would say that the logic you present would be a strong hypothesis that I think would be shown to be correct if we were able to look at that. Part of the difficulty in looking at remittances is largely how we construct our data. We largely look at people once they're here, rather than looking at flows with their broader family abroad as well as their flows in and out of Canada. I can only speculate, but I suspect you'd probably find that would be true.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Thank you very much.

Mr. Sweetman, you're talking about some insurance-related issues, but if I were to take the gist of what you're saying it is that prudent planning by the government would resolve most, if not all, of the concerns you raised in your opening statement.

11:20 a.m.

Prof. Arthur Sweetman

Yes, I think that's true. My advocacy is for that kind of prudent advance planning.

If I can go back to your first question to Mr. Ramos, I think my first main point addresses that question directly. The one-year term for insurance right now imposes very substantial risk on low-income families. By virtue of having one-year insurance, the major cost increase they might experience in a second, third or fourth year of a visit would be a very substantial increase in the insurance premium they need to pay. That's exactly the kind of risk I'd like to mitigate so that people know right from the beginning how much they need to pay for the entire length of the stay.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Right now, many of these risks exist, as you pointed out. If someone had one year of insurance and stayed for two years, that risk currently exists. Under the current super visa, that two-year stay can be extended.

The risk of having a longer stay, which is what's proposed in my bill, substantially already exists. Would you agree with that?

11:20 a.m.

Prof. Arthur Sweetman

It does to some extent. At the renewal, I think you need to prove insurance once again, if I'm not mistaken, so there is a verification of insurance at a certain point.

This risk is, in some sense, about protecting the parents, grandparents and their sponsors and pooling risk to their advantage.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Thank you very much.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you.

We will proceed to Mr. El-Khoury.

You have six minutes. Please begin.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Fayçal El-Khoury Liberal Laval—Les Îles, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I welcome the witnesses.

My first question is for Mr. Sweetman.

Mr. Sweetman, you said in your presentation that you were in favour of more competition, internationally, among insurance companies that don't require payment in advance, which would have a positive impact on consumers' wallets.

How do you think you can find a balance? Would there be many well rated international companies that would agree not to be paid in advance? How can you balance that out?

11:25 a.m.

Prof. Arthur Sweetman

You are raising exactly the questions that I was raising. Striking that balance is not something we're going to solve in a half-hour discussion now. It's going to take a lot of work by people who are specialists.

I think we can do that. In my view, the minister should have his staff in the department set up potential guidelines—criteria, if you like—for any insurance company anywhere to meet in order to be on this approved list of qualified insurance companies for this purpose. In part, it's not only about criteria for being on the list. It's also the simultaneous process or the criteria for being removed from the list.

I don't actually think we should go out and solicit companies. We should rather post criteria and any that meet the criteria could potentially be on the list. The goal is to intelligently and carefully design those criteria for the benefit of Canadians and the super visa holders when they visit Canada.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Fayçal El-Khoury Liberal Laval—Les Îles, QC

Mr. Sweetman, based on your knowledge in the field, what do you think are the obstacles to accepting a wider range of health insurance coverage options outside Canada?

What do you think are the major obstacles to coming up with a solution?

11:25 a.m.

Prof. Arthur Sweetman

I mentioned one of the barriers, which is that some insurance companies in some jurisdictions—and we only need to look a little bit further south of us to see that in practice—are very active in telling hospitals and other health care providers what they should be doing. That's not part of the Canadian norm and that would be a real shock for our health care system.

Similarly, some providers debate whether or not certain payments should be made. Again, those increase administrative costs, so we need to be very careful about designing a system that minimizes those types of debates. We also need to be worried about the credibility, the size and the respectability of the insurance companies in question.

Again, I think there are appropriate mechanisms that could be put in place to assure that kind of quality for insurance companies from many places around the world.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Fayçal El-Khoury Liberal Laval—Les Îles, QC

Thank you.

Mr. Ramos, Bill C-242 apparently aims to address the issue of the financial stability of people benefiting from these measures.

Do you think the bill has effective and reasonable provisions for that?

11:25 a.m.

Professor, Chair of the Department of Sociology, Western University, As an Individual

Dr. Howard Ramos

Thank you for that question.

It's important in the conversation to really think about the demographics of those who would be able to access the super visas. I think it's a very viable solution for people who have citizenship or whose parents and grandparents have citizenship in countries that do not allow dual citizenship. I think it's a very viable process for families who have wealth on both sides, from the newcomer as well as the family.

That's the piece of the puzzle that seems to be a little bit missed, which is to think about changing the narrative to begin to consider the benefits that the parents and grandparents are bringing, rather than just the deficits. I think the deficits overlook a lot of the positive aspects that parents and grandparents would bring.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Fayçal El-Khoury Liberal Laval—Les Îles, QC

Mr. Sweetman and Mr. Ramos, I would like to get your general opinion on this bill. Generally speaking, do you think this bill will have positive or negative impacts?

11:30 a.m.

Prof. Arthur Sweetman

Why don't you go first?