Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 3rd, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Madame Kayabaga, I'm sorry for interrupting. Your time is up, so we will have to proceed to our next member.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, you will have six minutes for your round of questioning. Please proceed.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank Mr. Camara and all the witnesses for being with us today for this very significant study that's very important to me. I have listened to all three witnesses.

Mr. Camara, I really enjoyed your presentation, especially the fact that you gave the committee clear and precise recommendations. Some of them will surely be included in the committee's final report.

While the federal government is at cross-purposes with Quebec's plan to welcome francophone foreign students, potentially over the long term, we have students like Mr. Feze, whose application was refused and who had to suffer the dramatic consequences of that last week, which infuriates me. It seems to me that immigration is a shared jurisdiction, so the federal and provincial governments should be working together.

I'd like to to hear your thoughts about that.

[Thibault Camara]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Brunelle Duceppe.

As you know, many French-speaking students from Africa sometimes obtain scholarships from the Quebec government. They get living expenses and they either pay no tuition or the same fees as Quebeckers. The scholarships these students receive are therefore based on their merits.

However, we are seeing that, despite those students obtaining the scholarships in the Quebec system, the Government of Canada sometimes refuses to grant them study permits for financial reasons.

We have two questions. First, when Quebec verifies the financial situation of applicants and accepts them, why does IRCC, representing Canada, refuse the permit for financial reasons, when the application had been accepted for financial reasons? That just doesn't seem right. Second, why are students selected by designated institutions in Quebec sometimes denied permits by Canada, even though they have scholarships?

In our view, this shows a lack of consistency between Quebec's selection criteria and Canada's. If the criteria for refusing study permits were linked to criminal record checks and so on, it would be fine. However, when the refusals are linked to an officer's belief that the student will not return to their country, even though Quebec and every Canadian province have put strategies in place to retain them, it is really alarming.

We therefore propose a clear and precise recommendation: an increased dialogue between the governments of Quebec and Canada with a view to scrupulously observing each party's responsibilities under the Canada-Quebec Accord of 1991, with special emphasis on the selections made by Quebec.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you. I'm going to ask you for a quick answer to the next question, because I do not have a lot of time.

Can you explain the bilateral relationship between the recruitment agencies and IRCC? Can IRCC make requests to the recruiting offices of the educational institutions to encourage them to diversify their acceptance of international students?

[Thibault Camara]

That is an excellent question, but I'm afraid I do not have all the information I would need to answer it.

Our observation, if you were asking about recruiters—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Yes.

[Thibault Camara]

—is that there is no clear guidance. According to some testimonies, some who recruit in African countries promise quick access to permanent residency for the students, because that is what they officers are sometimes selling. But it does not really reflect the reality.

Our recommendation is the to create a guide and regulations for the promotion of Canadian universities and educational institutions abroad that avoids broken dreams and lives destroyed by promises.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Normand, I almost fell off my chair when I was listening to your comments. I just want to make sure I understood you correctly.

Did you just say that, according to some officers, wanting to study in French outside Quebec is not a valid choice? If so, are these statements documented? Are they commonly expressed? It is discrimination, pure and simple.

[Martin Normand]

Thank you for your question.

As I was saying, for us, this significant refusal rate of study permits for applicants from Africa is a situation that our member institutions have been observing for at least the last 15 or so years. We have heard anecdotal evidence that some applications were refused because officers decided that the choice to study in French outside of Quebec was not a legitimate pathway and that there was cause to doubt the veracity of the students' intentions.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

To hear IRCC say that, in the rest of Canada, outside of Quebec, the choice to study in French is not a valid pathway, is huge. I am going to glue my chair to the floor and try not to fall off. Thank you very much, Mr. Normand.

Mr. Camara, I have one last question for you. Could you give me a little more detail on one of your flagship proposals, the position of ombudsperson?

[Thibault Camara]

Having no ombudsperson at IRCC implies that there are systemic problems in the department, and that its officers are making arbitrary decisions at their own discretion. You have just pointed out that those officers believe they are in a better position than students or universities to say whether a study request is credible or not. Why is it up to an IRCC officer to do that?

Right now, we are forced to litigate everything and many cases end up in federal court to try to reverse those decisions. Aggrieved applicants are also turning to MPs. You know that almost 70% of the cases you receive in your constituency offices are immigration related. There is a lack of democratic transparency.

The creation of an ombudsperson—to carry over a request that was previously made in 2021—will allow decisions to be reviewed, the number of files that end up in constituency offices to be reduced, reports to be routinely analyzed, and transparency to be provided to the public, both Canadian and foreign...

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting, Mr. Camara.

The time is up.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

We will now proceed to Ms. Kwan.

Ms. Kwan, you have six minutes.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses for their presentations.

I'd like to follow up with Mr. Camara.

On the issue around Chinook, your recommendation is for the government to halt the use of it. What we've heard with Chinook is that there are potentially inherent biases embedded in this artificial intelligence system. Some of those biases are triggered by risk words that are identified and red-flagged [Technical difficulty—Editor] the large majority of the applications are rejected.

With that in mind, would you agree that with any artificial intelligence systems the government must hold extensive consultations with stakeholders, and that there must be an independent assessment of these tools?

[Thibault Camara]

Thank you, Ms. Kwan. Your question is excellent and you are absolutely right about the Chinook system. We are calling for an immediate halt to its use in order to conduct a thorough and detailed study of its parameters and possible racist biases. I specialize in data science myself; it is my job to create risk prediction models. Since those models are supposedly based on humans, creating notions of risk reflects human behaviour.

Instead of giving ourselves the opportunity to start from scratch, we used a system to implement human reflexes instead of defining the risks from the beginning. We analyzed the human risks, we put them in the machine and we make them apply, all the while disclaiming any responsibility because the machine makes the decisions. However, we know very well what we have put into it and that the software contains inherent risks. So, we need an independent and clear study; we need to be able to know what is going on in Chinook's black box.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much.

I'd like to just follow up on that. With respect to IRCC's work, [Technical difficulty—Editor] has a dual intent outlined for students and other applications as well. With that dual intent, they say that is not grounds to reject people if they may want to stay, yet the outcome is such that they reject people. On that issue, would you agree that the government also needs to revise its dual intent parameters and clearly instruct that IRCC officials should not reject applications just because people might have an intention to stay?

[Thibault Camara]

Thank you, Ms. Kwan.

Yes, we are recommending strict and rigorous enforcement of section 22(2) of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, which states that the intention to settle in Canada does not prevent a foreign national from becoming a temporary resident. The problem is that section 179(b) of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Regulations gives disproportionate discretion to immigration officers, who use it to discriminate against a certain segment of the population, specifically French-speaking students from Africa, and to let another segment through. It's really pernicious.

Today, we have to [technical difficulties] that we have all these programs to retain international students and yet we discriminate against those international students because they may wish to stay in Canada after they graduate.

So you are perfectly correct.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Camara, you mentioned that students have to pay tuition, especially during the pandemic. In your brief, you noted that IRCC said they can pay the tuition and enrol abroad while their application is being processed, but many of them actually got rejected [Technical difficulty—Editor] to which they paid the tuition. Your recommendation was to have the government take responsibility for that. Am I correct?

What exactly are you suggesting that the government should do in those instances?

[Thibault Camara]

During the pandemic, there was a major change of course. IRCC actually asked students to pay tuition fees in advance, even though they had not yet obtained their study permit. Thousands of international students did just that. At the same time, IRCC continued to process applications for study permits.

The problem was that many people were denied study permits. Some had already paid $16,000, as an example, for a year of study. But their study permits were refused in October or November, long after the academic year had begun.

IRCC created this rule and forced applicants to pay in advance, but did not offer refunds to students whose study permits were refused. Thousands of students who paid a considerable amount in anticipation of a positive response received a negative response, and they have never been reimbursed.

We recommend that IRCC establish, as quickly as possible, a mechanism to reimburse all those who paid tuition fees, at IRCC's request, before their study permits were refused. This request is important for all international students. In addition, the situation damages Canada's reputation abroad.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you.

Like Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, I was really astounded by Mr. Normand's comment that individuals are being rejected for—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Ms. Kwan, I'm sorry for interrupting. Your time is up. We will have to proceed to our next member.

Based on the time, we will have four minutes each for Mr. Redekopp and Ms. Lalonde, and two minutes each for Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe and Ms. Kwan.

Mr. Redekopp, you have four minutes. Please proceed.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Thank you.

I want to speak again about the student direct stream. This is the path that allows you to get a little quicker approval. I believe there are only two countries in Africa—Morocco and Senegal—that are part of the student direct stream. When we look at rejection rates, I'd be curious to know the rejection rate difference between countries that are part of the student direct stream and those that are not.

Monsieur Dupuis, have you any experience that you can relate with regard to Morocco and Senegal versus other Francophonie countries?

[Alain Dupuis]

Unfortunately, I do not have those figures at hand today.

Mr. Normand, do you have anything to add?

[Martin Normand]

Our member institutions do not provide us with that data.

Our institutions do their own recruitment in the field and support some students. We do not have that distinction between the programs that are used to try to accelerate the arrival of international students.