Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 1st, 2022

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Bhatti, historically we have seen instances of bias, particularly in the UNHCR refugee determination selection process, and you've described that. Would you recommend that, as part of the government's solution to addressing the backlogs, particularly in the privately sponsored refugee stream, the government undertake an independent third party audit of how bias may affect the wait times experienced by certain classes of refugees in the PSR program?

[Peter Bhatti]

My recommendation to our visa office, especially in Singapore but in other countries as well, is that for PSRs they have to do independent studies for the refugees. Most of the time, they are getting consultations from the UNHCR, which is I think unfair to the refugees, because they're biased decisions and they are followed up with the UNHCR.

They have to do independent studies. Due to those studies, they have to see the different levels the refugees are coming from: What is their persecution level? What kind of evidence is there—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

To be clear, your recommendation is to decouple Canada's review and selection process for the PSR stream from the UNHCR's process.

[Peter Bhatti]

Yes.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Okay.

Would you also recommend to the government that they work with either sponsorship agreement holders or families—like groups of five—to find ways to support groups like this that have financially committed to sponsoring refugees but who now, due to the backlogs, experience multi-year delays in seeing the refugees come to the country?

What I'm getting at is this: I know that sometimes people just give up. After years have gone by, people who have raised funds to sponsor a refugee just walk away from the commitment without hope. Would you recommend to the government to also be working with those people so that we're not losing, due to the backlogs, that investment capacity, if you will, in sponsoring refugees?

[Peter Bhatti]

It would be an excellent idea if they could come up with a different program so they can come, with a group of five doing their due diligence sponsorship, and they can fulfill the application of the sponsorship in one year, which is mostly what they're doing.

If they're able to do that, it would be an excellent idea. Then they don't have to be verified, the PSRs. However, the main issue is one of delay. All the sponsorship agreement holders are doing a wonderful job and they want to do more. If we can encourage all our SAHs—those holders—in Canada and support them, if governments supported them more and gave more avenues to them.... They are doing a splendid job.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

What's the number one way to clear the backlog in the privately sponsored refugee stream, in your opinion?

[Peter Bhatti]

First, they have to add more human resources. More staff need to be hired who can do the job. Secondly, they have to modernize the application system.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

The government has started to use artificial intelligence, if you will, in the screening of certain types of applications. Would you recommend to the government to ensure that bias against certain ethnic groups or other persecuted minorities is removed from any algorithms that would be used to determine PSR status?

[Peter Bhatti]

Yes. I recommend that to the government. When any visa official is doing an interview, they have to see the applicant's ethnicity and background, and they have to consider that during the interview.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Okay.

Do you see evidence right now that this is contributing to the backlogs?

[Peter Bhatti]

Not much. I think that every day we are getting more backlogs. I'll give you one example.

I submitted one sponsorship application this year, and even up to October, I did not get an acknowledgement of the application. The refugee continues to ask us, “Did you submit the application?” or “Do you have any proof?”, and we don't have anything to respond to the refugee. The refugee is in despair and very disappointed: “If it's taking one year to get me the application acknowledgement, how long will it take until they process the application?”

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Your time is up, Ms. Rempel Garner.

We will now proceed to Ms. Lalonde.

Ms. Lalonde, you will have five minutes for your round of questioning. You can please begin.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I too would like to thank each and every one of the witnesses here with us, whether in person or via Zoom.

My question is mainly for the representatives of the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada.

I feel very strongly about the francophonie. Thank you for being there and always responding to the call and defending it when you're asked to come and testify.

We are mainly studying the backlogs and the processing delays. We're looking for solutions and for ideas about what the government could contribute.

I should perhaps put things in perspective. Moreover, I believe one of my colleagues referred to it. In 2017, under the Express Entry program, additional points were assigned to immigrants who were very proficient in French.

In connection with the subject we are studying, would mechanisms like that help to reduce the time it takes to welcome applicants from francophone countries, and perhaps even more applicants, to Canada?

[Yves-Gérard Méhou-Loko]

Thank you for your question, Ms. Lalonde.

It's true that under the current circumstances, any initiative definitely deserves to be studied.

As for the Express Entry program, my colleague Mr. Dupuis was saying earlier that having francophones carry out a study on behalf of francophones would lead to a substantial increase in francophone immigration to Canada, including to our francophone communities. Having the capacity to work on that would be a very good start. It would in fact enable us to increase this capacity.

Mr. Dupuis, I think I'll let you continue with further aspects of your response.

[Alain Dupuis]

I don't think there's much of a difference in terms of response time for francophones and anglophones. As was mentioned with respect to the processing capacity for African applications, there is one office in Cameroon. However, we have a presence in just 17 of Africa's 54 countries. And yet, Africa has the largest population of French speakers in the world and it's where there's going to be population growth

The processing capacity for applications from Africa is, to be sure, one of our priorities.

As for other areas, I naturally would mention delays that occur at our post-secondary institutions with respect to student visas. In September, there was an entire cohort of students that was still living in uncertainty, and who didn't know whether they were going to get these visas or not. Often, only a fraction of those who apply for admission are accepted and come here.

We have also heard that francophone employers are experiencing many problems and have perhaps become less confident in the system. Francophones are making efforts to have francophone foreign workers come here, but it takes an enormous amount of time.

What we do is spend a crazy amount of time making employers aware in order to encourage them to have francophone immigrants and workers come here, but the processing delays are not meeting the labour market requirements. If the processing capacity issue is not dealt with, it will become very difficult for us to encourage francophones and employers to use these programs. Everything is of course interrelated.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

I totally agree with you that we need to increase our processing capacity. Although efforts were made during the pandemic, under rather unusual conditions, we need solutions that specifically target francophones.

What suggestions do you have for the committee?

[Yves-Gérard Méhou-Loko]

First of all, francophone immigration needs to be considered as specific to francophones, and ought not to be included in general immigration targets. Some serious thinking is required, along with a strategy focusing on francophones outside Quebec, if the vitality of these communities is to be maintained. This will require giving the issue some serious thought upstream. A francophone immigration program for minority communities would be a good starting point.

As Mr. Dupuis previously mentioned, it's absolutely essential to increase our service capacity on the African continent and in francophone areas. It's also required in Europe, but particularly in sub-Saharan Africa and the Maghreb, because demographically, the strength of the Francophonie is now in these areas.

These factors are definitely among our priorities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting, but the time is up.

We will now proceed to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for two and a half minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I think you're wonderful, but I'm looking forward to not seeing you appear before the committee any more. I get the impression that you've been preaching in the desert for years. There may be a few people listening, but there are certainly no results.

What's your relationship with the departmental policy office that handles francophone immigration outside Quebec ? Do you get the impression that there is a meaningful way to communicate with them.

[Yves-Gérard Méhou-Loko]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

It's interesting. I think we now have communication channels, but we are awaiting the results.

I'll let Mr. Dupuis continue, because that's his everyday role too.

[Alain Dupuis]

I'd say that Mr. Fraser's office is in fact very much involved.

We've been deliberating about the new francophone immigration policy promised in Bill C-13. However, we have very high hopes for the policy. It will enable us to have a “before and after” picture of francophone immigration in Canada. Its main objective must also be not only to stem the decline, but also restore the balance.

In this policy then, a restorative component needs to be very clear. Everyone needs to be made aware of the fact that we have had an official languages act for 50 years and that our communities have been in decline over that period. The matter requires serious attention and special measures are needed to change things, not only for the francophone communities, but also for Quebec, where French has also been declining.

Our country is made up of a linguistic duality and two highly diverse host communities, but a shot in the arm might help, along with support for the structural components specific to these francophone areas.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

We spoke about sub-Saharan Africa and the Maghreb. Are you telling members of the committee that there aren't enough visa offices in these countries?

[Yves-Gérard Méhou-Loko]

Definitely. It's an urgent matter.