Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 8th, 2022

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

I want to thank both of our witnesses for being here today and for taking the time to indulge us in this discussion in our study.

I want to ask this question of Dr. Christian. Thank you so much for your information and expertise.

I also want to clarify that you are speaking on the IRCC report, specifically, on the discrimination and disapproval rates that African students receive.

You talked about the artificial intelligence one.

What kind of oversight would you suggest would be the best to make sure that.... As we have the two reports from IRCC that have found discrimination and racism, what do you suggest would be the best oversight to this Chinook system, the artificial intelligence system, to remove the discrimination and racism against African students?

[Gideon Christian]

My ability to answer this question will be very limited, because I have zero idea about the artificial intelligence technology IRCC is using. I may not be able to provide a specific answer to the question, but in every case where the use of artificial intelligence technology is involved, it's often important to have an independent body of experts that oversees the technology and the algorithm. That body should be independent from the user or the organization using the system, the artificial intelligence system itself.

If we can have an independent body of experts that oversees the design of this technology and the development of the algorithm to ensure that this racism or the data used in training this technology does not feed bias, discrimination and racism on the algorithm, that would be very important.

Let me quickly go to the Chinook case, which is a very good example.

Okay. I see from the MP that my time is up.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

I appreciate your answer, I really do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you.

We will now proceed to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for one minute.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for being with us.

This is the last time I will get to speak to you. You have been very eloquent and you have also shared your expertise with us.

I am coming back to you, Mr. Christian, because in the last set of questions I asked you, you said that you support creating an immigration ombudsperson position in Canada. How do you feel that would improve things for you?

[Gideon Christian]

I'm concerned already about the discrimination, the bias and discrimination, against African students when it comes to study visa applications. My major concern is having those biases fed into technology. That is very serious, because as humans we tend to have this concern that once technology makes a decision, that decision is bias free. It is not.

When you use a biased technology [Technical difficulty—Editor] that has to train the technology, it regurgitates those biases. My concern now is that already these reports are showing bias. Let's make sure we don't transfer that bias to the AI technology that IRCC is going to be using.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Dr. Christian.

We will now end our round of questioning with a minute for Ms. Kwan.

Ms. Kwan, please go ahead.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you.

My question is for Dr. Christian.

Thank you so much for your expertise on this. There's no question that there needs to be both independent assessment for any artificial intelligence systems and then also an ombudsperson to review IRCC matters. Those are two separate issues.

With respect to applications, the government also has this thing called “dual intent”. Are you familiar with that? What are your thoughts on it, and what needs to be done?

[Gideon Christian]

I am very familiar with dual intent. I'm a lawyer, and part of my practice, of course, includes immigration law.

“Dual intent” means that if somebody is coming to Canada to study and they also have the intent to become a permanent resident after that, it is perfect and fine under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, but I warn study permit applicants from Africa: “Do not ever bring up the issue of dual intent in your application—if you do, it's going to come back to haunt you.”

With regard to dual intent, the problem we are having is that dual intent is being misinterpreted by IRCC decision-makers, and that is what is sad about it, because the law allows for it, but if you express that intent, you are likely going to be refused a study visa to Canada.

All I say—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting. Your time is up.

With this, I would like to thank both our witnesses, Dr. Christian and the High Commissioner for the People's Republic of Bangladesh, for appearing before this committee and providing us your important input.

With this, this panel comes to an end. I will suspend the meeting for two minutes so that the sound checks can be done for the second panel.

I have Ms. Kwan.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Before our witnesses leave this panel, I would like to invite them to submit additional documentation that they think would be relevant and useful for the committee members' consideration.

Because time was limited and you did not get to give the full answers you perhaps may have wished to, if you have any supplementary items to add to the questions that were put to you, please submit them to the clerk so that we can receive that info.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Ms. Kwan. Please direct the questions through the chair.

Yes, for both witnesses, if there is something that you would like to bring to the committee's notice, please send your submission to the clerk of the committee. That will be distributed to all of the members, and we will take that into consideration as we continue this important study.

With that, thanks once again to both our witnesses.

I will suspend the meeting for two minutes to let the clerk do the sound checks for the second panel.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I call the meeting to order.

I would like to take this opportunity to welcome our witnesses as we continue our study on the recruitment and acceptance rates of foreign students.

In this panel, I welcome Martin Basiri, chief executive officer and co-founder of ApplyBoard. Also, we have with us Madam Leah Nord, senior director, workforce strategies and inclusive growth, representing the Canadian Chamber of Commerce.

The third witness for this panel is Madam Denise Amyot, president and chief executive officer, and we also have been joined by Andrew Champagne, manager, mobility programs. Both are representing Colleges and Institutes Canada.

I would like to welcome all of you and thank you for appearing before this committee.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are ready to speak, you can click on the microphone icon to activate your mike. I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair. Interpretation in this video conference will work very much like in a regular committee meeting. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

All the witnesses will be given five minutes for their opening remarks. Then we will proceed to the rounds of questioning. For the benefit of all the witnesses and the members, I will give a one-minute warning, a 30-second warning and then a red card to show that your time is up, so please keep an eye on that.

With that, we will begin with Mr. Basiri, chief executive officer and co-founder of ApplyBoard.

You have five minutes for your opening remarks, Mr. Basiri. Please proceed.

[Martin Basiri, Chief Executive Officer and Co-founder, ApplyBoard]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all members of the committee for engaging on this important topic.

My name is Martin Basiri. I came to Canada as an international student from Iran to study at the University of Waterloo for my master's in engineering. Six years ago, I co-founded one of the fastest-growing tech companies in the world with my brothers—who are also international students who came here with me—with a mission to educate the world. ApplyBoard is the largest platform for international students to discover and apply to educational institutions.

Thanks to IRCC, my brothers and I received our permanent residency through Canada’s start-up visa program and we were able to stay here in Canada and grow our company. We now include team members in over 30 countries, with 1,000 here in Canada. I will be forever grateful for the opportunity that the Canadian education system has given me as an international student. I wish for future leaders of Canada to follow the same pathway.

We have insight from helping over 300,000 applicants to Canadian institutions from 125 countries in the world. As well, I studied the last six years of study permit applications for this committee and would be happy to answer any of your questions after my recommendations.

The first recommendation is on dual intent. Our institutions, immigration system and government all promote the post-graduation work permit pathway to stay and work in Canada legally after graduation. We motivate the world’s best students to choose Canada over other countries because of our leading institutions and career opportunities after graduation. Then, at the time of application, we want them to tell us that they won't stay in Canada and will return to their home country.

Why are we doing this? Why are we discouraging applicants from being transparent and truthful about their intentions for coming to Canada, when in fact we want them to stay?

Madam Chair, you and this committee can create the political will to change this once and for all and to transform Canada’s talent attraction pathway to enable a better future for all Canadians.

Second, we must evaluate students on their potential and value to Canadian institutions and communities, not their ties to their home countries. Asking students to show ties to their home countries, families and businesses is a huge disadvantage to so many of the top students. Think about the top student in a west African country who happens to be an orphan. They have no chance of showing family ties. That’s not who Canadians are. That's not who we are and that needs to stop.

Third, IRCC is evaluating potential students from over 200 countries and fraud is one of the major challenges they have. They can’t solve this alone. They need to shed light on the importance of eliminating fraud and push all stakeholders—especially universities, colleges and test providers—to help in ending fraud altogether, forever.

Fourth, in this hearing, you've heard from other witnesses testifying to different problems that IRCC is having with time, processing, transparency and everything else. That being said, I have to say that IRCC has accomplished a lot during the pandemic. They have made policies in weeks that would normally take years, in a fast-changing pandemic environment.

Data suggests that there are persistent correlations between study permit acceptance rates and students' countries of origin, school attending, age and a number of other factors. To build efficiency, there is no better approach than for IRCC to create an AI-driven dynamic visa application system with dynamic requirements based on Canada’s needs, academic credentials of the application, intended institutions and other factors. This would not only increase the transparency of the system, but it would also end confusion.

Sector stakeholders want to be a part of the solution and have the expertise to help, so please continue to ask. We are willing to help build a better future for all Canadians.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair, for having me here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Mr. Basiri.

We will now proceed to Ms. Nord, representing the Canadian Chamber of Commerce.

Ms. Nord, you will have five minutes for your opening remarks.

[Leah Nord, Senior Director, Workforce Strategies and Inclusive Growth, Canadian Chamber of Commerce]

Good afternoon, and thank you, Madam Chair, vice-chair, committee members and fellow speakers here. I am speaking to you today from Ottawa, the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people. I go by the pronouns she, her and elle. Today I am still remotely working from my home office.

I'm speaking to you today on behalf of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, which is the voice of Canadian business. We represent 200,000 businesses across the country, across sectors and across sizes, including our network of 450 local chambers and boards of trade from coast to coast to coast.

Immigrants play an important role in the inclusive growth and diversity of the Canadian workforce in communities. The chamber has a series of recommendations that promote innovative and effective policies and programming to support new Canadians with labour market and community integration. This includes international students.

Before going into detail on these recommendations, I will take a step back and underscore the current labour shortage crisis. We have an unprecedented and I dare say unfathomable one million job vacancies in Canada. Vacancies in health care, construction, manufacturing, accommodation and food services along with retail trade are currently leading the way, yet we have shortages across sectors, communities and regions affecting every size of business. Businesses, including small businesses, are citing labour shortages as often one of their most significant barriers to economic growth.

As the chamber indicated in a release last week, this problem is not new and is structural in nature. In early 2020, before the pandemic, we were speaking of record job vacancies and record low unemployment rates. Two years later I am saying the same thing to you here today.

Addressing the structural issues and building sustained, inclusive talent pipelines will be key to our economic recovery and growth. And international students have an important role to play. They are qualified, credentialed, acclimatized, and many—more than half of them—are wanting to stay. My fellow witness Ms. Amyot will likely cite that every Canadian is within 50 kilometres of one of her member colleges, CEGEPs or polytechnic institutes. I would add that at each of these, there are international students, including in our small, rural, remote and under-serviced communities. Although that does not guarantee anything per se, it does give these communities a proverbial fighting chance.

At the chamber's 2021 AGM, a policy resolution was passed specific to international students that made the following recommendations to the federal government.

One, allow international students attending institutions that are designated on the DIL list, the designated institution list, to: (a) qualify for Canada Summer Jobs and student work placement programs; (b) participate in voluntary co-op terms and internships without obtaining a separate work permit; and (c) count all time spent in Canada as international students towards citizenship eligibility.

Two, permanently remove the sectoral industry restrictions for the temporary pandemic-related measure that allows international students to work more than 20 hours a week off campus.

Three, make permanent the temporary pandemic-related measure to count studies towards hours needed to be eligible for post-graduate work permits.

Four, allow part-time studies to count towards the post-graduate work permit eligibility.

The Canadian chamber has also long supported pathways to permanent residency for temporary permit holders, and welcomed one of the Government of Canada's 2021 temporary public policies, the temporary resident to permanent resident pathway initiative that included 40,000 international students. We strongly encourage the Government of Canada to build on this, with a few caveats and additions.

The first is that these pathways serve to complement existing immigration programs and streams creating an and/or approach and not an either-or dichotomy.

The second is that consideration be given to providing international students on their pathways to permanent residency access to employment and settlement services that are currently only available to those with PR, permanent residency status.

The third is to provide funding for capacity building and concierge-type service to businesses, particularly SMEs to recruit and onboard international students.

Thank you for your time. I look forward to answering any questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Ms. Nord.

We will now proceed to our third witness. We will hear from Colleges and Institutes Canada represented by Ms. Amyot and Mr. Champagne.

Ms. Amyot, you will have five minutes. I think you will be sharing your time with Mr. Champagne. Please proceed.

[Denise Amyot, President and Chief Executive Officer, Colleges and Institutes Canada]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair and members of the committee.

I'm here on behalf of our 140 member institutions, colleges, CEGEPs, institutes and polytechnics.

For 50 years, Colleges and Institutes Canada has championed education, training and innovation on a global scale.

Canada's college systems are demand-driven systems. This means programs are designed in consultation with industry to ensure that students gain in-demand skills that respond to current and emerging labour market needs.

With 95% of the Canadian population living within 50 km of a college or institute, our members play a key role in international education and immigration by offering their programs to all communities in Canada, including rural and francophone minority communities.

We're hearing more and more stories of qualified students waiting several months for a decision on their study permit only to have it rejected, often for unclear and unfounded reasons. This is particularly true for CEGEPs and francophone establishments outside of Quebec, whose primary source markets are in French-speaking Africa.

Refusals for reasons related to dual intent are particularly difficult to explain. On one hand, the Canadian government acknowledges and promotes study as a desirable pathway toward permanent residency but refuses applicants who openly express their desire to stay. Many students who have previously completed a university degree in their home country are also being refused for reasons related to what an officer might describe as a questionable education pathway, even though here at home Canadian university graduates are increasingly turning to colleges and institutes to help them upscale and transition to the labour market.

Another common reason for refusal relates to a student's inability to demonstrate financial sufficiency. Banking systems in certain countries are not as well developed, and students rely more heavily on family networks in ways that may seem atypical from a Canadian cultural lens.

For several years, Colleges and Institutes Canada has been advocating for a practical approach to resolving these issues by joining forces with IRCC. Innovative teamwork between our association and visa officers in the field has resulted in such things as the designated learning institution portal, a guaranteed investment certificate to demonstrate financial sufficiency and the student direct stream.

A pilot program with the Dakar visa office has shown that sharing information between designated learning institutions and visa officers can improve transparency and mutual understanding and bring up acceptance rates.

Our association wants to continue working with IRCC to find other innovative solutions to streamline application processes and facilitate recruitment of the students who best meet the needs of our labour market. For example, IRCC should consider implementing a demand driven study permit stream that would give priority to applicants who have a job offer conditional on graduation. The stream would promote communication between our members and local employers, and would likely increase the number of students in rural and remote areas, where labour shortages are more acute.

In conclusion, modernizations to the study permit applications process are needed such as an expansion of the study direct stream to more francophone countries, increased transparency and better two-way information sharing, greater connections between DLIs and employers, a review of policies and definitions related to the international student program, and approved and stable approval rates.

Those measures are needed for our member institutions to remain competitive and for Canada to be a destination of choice.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Ms. Amyot.

We will now proceed to our round of questioning.

Mr. Redekopp, you have six minutes for your round of questioning. You can please proceed.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for your testimony here today. It's been very enlightening.

I'm going to start with Mr. Basiri.

I come from Saskatoon. We're a smaller city in Canada, although we have a world-class university and a great polytechnic school as well, and so international students are very important to us.

In your experience, do international students go to the smaller centres like Saskatoon as much? What are some of the reasons why they might or might not do that?

[Martin Basiri]

It's a great question.

The way international student recruitment works, a lot of it is based on the way the universities and colleges, and to some extent some of the district boards, do advertisements and do their positioning. We've seen, not only in a city the size of Saskatoon, some universities, like Algoma University, in a smaller area in northern Ontario, be very successful by positioning itself correctly.

It's all about how to position it. There are a lot of opportunities, and remote work, especially in the STEM fields is a new norm of the world. There are a lot of people who would love go from big cities and have big homes in areas where real estate is not as expensive.

I don't think there is a place in Canada that doesn't have an opportunity to take a lot of international students. All it takes is the right sales and marketing and positioning our good institutions. Some of our least popular schools here are much better than some of the best schools overseas, so there is always a very good demand for higher education.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Of course, the ones in Saskatoon are the best in Canada, I just have to say.

Following along with that, the student direct stream is something we heard about in the previous panel from the high commissioner of Bangladesh. In your experience, has the student direct stream helped students from certain countries get to Canada? Is this something that should be expanded into other countries like Bangladesh?

[Martin Basiri]

SDS was the first step to create more transparency and the IRCC asking the students what they want. Absolutely, I think we should have a global SDS, but I would also design it per that country and the universities or colleges the students are coming to. For example, we know that even for students of countries that have very low visa rates, if they're accepted at the University of Waterloo or the University of Toronto, they have a very high chance of a visa.

We just have to make it more dynamic and something that serves our needs; I am very much in favour of that. You could say that also IRCC did that with express entry, when people want to get their permanent residency to make the point system.... That was a very clever move and made Canada one of the best immigration destinations for skilled workers. I'm 100% confident that making a very good SDS can create a lot of transparency and also make it very good for universities and colleges to position themselves globally.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Thanks.

Ms. Amyot, I'll ask you the same question. What are your thoughts on the student direct stream? What could be changed? What could be improved, and what would you say to someone like the high commissioner of Bangladesh, who really wants to get his country into that stream?

[Denise Amyot]

I agree with you that SDS is essential. In fact, we put in place the first concept. Before it was called SDS, we did a pilot project with IRCC. At the time it was called by another name. What is interesting is that afterwards, we saw more and more countries having an SDS process.

I think it's important that whenever IRCC wants to add new countries to the SDS, they talk with us. For us, what is important is the diversification of countries. It's extremely important, no matter which member we talk to. Whether it's Saskatchewan, Polytechnique, or other colleges or CEGEPs across the country, this is always what we hear. For the SDS process, please do not surprise us by suddenly having five new countries without us having discussed them before.