Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 25th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Now we will proceed to Mr. Dhaliwal.

Mr. Dhaliwal, you will have six minutes. Please begin.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My first question is for the IRB.

Thank you to all of you for the presentations—the CBSA, the IRB and the RCMP—and for the work that you fellows are are doing in people's lives.

For the IRB, Mr. Wex mentioned that even though the wait times are the lowest since 2016-17, we are still hearing that there is a long wait when it comes to processing the claims for the asylum seekers. Could Mr. Wex tell us what are some of the things the IRB can do to alleviate the time taken to process these applications?

[Richard Wex]

Through the chair, first of all, the wait times for new claims as of, let's say today, for anybody making a new claim at the IRB will be processed within the next 16 months, based on current inventories and trends.

Second, we have about 65,000 in our inventory right now. A third of those are not actionable because we're waiting for either documentation, security screening or this or that.

That leaves about 45,000 in our claims inventory right now that are actionable. They have been heard. They are on the schedule or will be placed on the schedule within the next 11 months. From the IRB's perspective, with what is in our inventory and with what is actionable, they have been or will be scheduled within 11 months.

In terms of things that can be done, the IRB over the past number of years has taken on a pretty ambitious transformation agenda, which I alluded to in my opening remarks, with a real focus on a culture of performance and results. We understand what the asylum seekers have been through. They have a very long journey. It's been a very challenging journey to them. They have faced many challenges on their way to the IRB, including long processing times throughout the process. We've taken that on board. It's been a tough problem, and we've looked at everything from intake to recourse to try to expedite our processing times.

One initiative in particular that I'll speak to, although there are many, is with respect to the task force on less complex claims. This is an initiative that tries to best allocate our resources based on the complexity of the claims in question. This task force is a group of individuals, members of the refugee protection division that Roula heads up, and 10% of the complement are currently dedicated to this group. Over the past four years or so, since this group was established, they have finalized about 20% of the hearings.

What this does is increase access to justice more quickly for those individuals in our inventory and better utilizes our resources. That is one example of many where we have tried to instill and initiate new ideas and new approaches to expedite processing times with good effect.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Thank you.

Now my question, Madam Chair, will go to all three organizations.

What I am hearing from many people is that they are asking us to declare the entire Canada-U.S. border an official point of entry.

They are also mentioning that there are almost 2.5 million people who have illegally come through the Mexico-U.S. border into the U.S., and if we did not have the safe third country agreement in place, what would be the consequences moving forward?

[D/Commr Michael Duheme]

There aren't any consequences that come to mind other than, as I said in my introductory remarks, that the reason we do the background checks is that we want to know who these people are.

For the most part, there is not much on the criminal side of things, but obviously, if people start pouring in like those doing so south of the border where you see the Americans and Mexico, there is a concern about who is coming in. That's why, at Roxham Road and other places across the country, we try to put as much rigour as we can in doing the checks of the people who are coming in, using the various data banks, as well as with our international partners when we can.

[Aaron McCrorie]

If I understand the question correctly, from my point of view, the biggest concern I have is the safety of the individuals coming into Canada. The safest way to come into Canada is at an official point of entry.

If you're crossing between points of entry, regardless of the circumstances, regardless of the conditions, you're taking on additional personal risk that may not be warranted.

I think, regardless of whether the STCA is in place or not, we encourage people to come across at points of entry primarily, first and foremost, for their own personal safety.

[Richard Wex]

Thank you.

If I understand the question, it's that, if the safe third country agreement were not in force, what would the major implications be?

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Yes.

[Richard Wex]

There are a couple of implications I'll speak to quickly.

First and foremost, obviously the incentive to proceed irregularly would no longer be there. That would encourage people to cross at the border, which would disperse the impact on any one area like Roxham Road, which I think people are very familiar with. There are other other aspects to it, obviously.

The safe third country agreement was created for certain purposes: promoting safety, promoting international responsibility sharing and so on, so those things would no longer necessarily be there.

From an operational perspective, obviously the concern is that it's going to result in additional pressure on the asylum system. An operational perspective is different from a humanitarian perspective.

There are basically three buckets. There are irregular border crossers—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting, Mr. Wex.

The time is up for Mr. Dhaliwal. We will have to proceed to the next member.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, you are up next. You will have six minutes for your round of questioning.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank all the witnesses for being here with us today.

I believe you are all doing remarkable work. You're trying to do the best you can. Moreover, I've heard nothing but positive comments about the RCMP officers who deal with migrants at Roxham Road. I want you to know that your reputation on that score is good.

Mr. Wex, I may have misunderstood you. Did you say that if the safe third country agreement were to be suspended, there would be an increase in the number of asylum seekers at border crossings?

[Richard Wex]

If we were to suspend it and it were no longer in force, then, obviously, the purposes of the safe third country agreement would no longer be there.

Hence, yes, there is a concern held by some that in suspending the agreement, there would be a pull factor. Nobody knows.... I shouldn't say “nobody knows”. Instead, there are projections; there is some conjecture associated with the degree and extent to which that pull factor would materialize. Nonetheless, we understand that the projections are that there would be a material impact at the border.

When you look back 20 years ago, prior to the safe third country agreement, one of the reasons why the safe third country agreement was put in place was the security perimeter negotiations taking place between Canada and the United States. Those took on more force after 9/11.

One of the files that was discussed at the time was the safe third country agreement, because at that time, about a third of Canada's—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I'll have to interrupt you here, because I really don't have much time left.

In short, there are no reports or studies to indicate that the number of asylum claims would increase if the safe third country agreement were suspended. These are personal insights, but without any corroborating studies.

[Richard Wex]

No. I didn't say that. I'm sorry.

I am not aware of the exact impact that suspending the safe third country agreement would have on various ports of entry. I know that—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Okay, I'm going to stop you there. I apologize, but I really don't have much time left.

I now have a question for the RCMP representatives.

On September 28, in the House, the Minister of Public Safety answered a question about human trafficking networks. On behalf of the government, he said the following:

Mr. Speaker, we recognize that the situation at Roxham Road poses challenges. That is why we are investing more than $40 million in a strategy to address the problems associated with human trafficking. That is why we continue to add resources at our borders to protect the rights of refugees and to bring to justice those who abuse the system. We will continue that work.

That's what he told us, in the House.

To my knowledge, no criminal involved in a criminal network operating at Roxham Road has ever been charged. Am I wrong?

[D/Commr Michael Duheme]

To my knowledge, no.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

You know that there are human trafficking networks, and you told us so. The Minister of Public Safety is aware of this, as is the government . We are being told that discussions are under way with the Americans and that people are going to be charged.

Is the RCMP currently conducting investigations into human trafficking networks?

[Supt Martin Roach]

Absolutely. Several investigations of human trafficking networks are in progress. We have integrated teams that work along the border, from Valleyfield on the Quebec side to Champlain in the State of New York, where there is a detachment that covers the Roxham Road area. There are some in Estrie and Beauce as well. That covers the entire area, along an 810 km border.

So we have been conducting investigations in partnership with our American counterparts. There have been cases in which we arrested people and filed charges against them for human smuggling.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

So there have been some, but not at Roxham Road.

[Supt Martin Roach]

We haven't had cases like that at Roxham Road specifically, but there have been some elsewhere in the area.

At Roxham Road, however, there have been cases involving people linked to other criminal offences, like child pornography or organized crime, for example. We had cases in which people had warrants against them in the United States for other criminal offences. There were a few instances of that.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I just want to make sure that I understand properly. I don't know whether you saw the CBC report about traffickers. I understand that although they are breaking the law in Canada, the offence is considered to have occurred in the United States. In fact, it appears to have been relatively easy for the journalist to follow these people all the way to Florida.

You've probably been having discussions with your American counterparts on this, but allow me to repeat that the white vans involved go through on Wednesday, Saturday and Sunday. They make two or three trips a day, with about a dozen people at a time.

There's just one thing we're having trouble understanding, and that is how these people can continue trafficking when the information has been made public.

[D/Commr Michael Duheme]

It is indeed public information. But it's important to understand that it's sometimes easier for journalists to investigate than for the police to obtain the kind of information that would allow them to launch a proper investigation.

As I said earlier, once people get to where they want to be in the country, it can sometimes be difficult to find help.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I understand. So the work should really be done on the other side of the border. That's where the people who make the trips ought to be caught, but it's impossible for you to do it.

[D/Commr Michael Duheme]

There's a joint effort under way not only at the national level, with the provincial police and the RCMP, but also at the international level.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

My next question is for the representatives of the Canada Border Services Agency.

Could you explain to the committee members what the process for an asylum claim used to be for someone from the United States, prior to the safe third country agreement?