Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 29th, 2022

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

The question is for you, Minister.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I'll tell you the answer. It was about 800.

We have now welcomed more than 25,000 Afghan refugees. If you think that's insignificant, feel free to take that message back to Yorkton, but I don't think that's insignificant.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

The fall of Kabul happened under your watch, so I would expect that would be something you would deal with. I'm talking about the special immigration measures, and I'm talking about the Afghan interpreters' family members. Those numbers are still relatively small.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I don't think this is small at all. So far under the special immigration measures, I believe, we're dealing with in excess of 9,000 folks who are here and another 14,000 through our humanitarian programs.

To suggest that this is insignificant boggles my mind. More than 25,000 people who were facing persecution and potentially torture or death at the hands of the Taliban have been given a second lease on life. I have met them. They are living in our communities. They are people who contributed to our mission in Afghanistan. They are people who—

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Minister, what's not insignificant certainly is the amount of money you've spent, for sure. You talk about people you've seen, and I have seen them too—

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Are you saying this was too expensive? Is your argument that it was too expensive?

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

My argument is that there are people waiting—

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Do you know how many refugees you committed to take in your campaign platform in the last federal election? The answer is zero.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Minister, there are people still waiting. They're stuck in limbo in other countries. They're sitting in Pakistan and other countries waiting to come to Canada because the program is going so slowly. What do you say to those people who aren't here yet?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I say that there are extraordinary challenges. This is like no refugee resettlement initiative that the federal government has ever taken on. The challenges on the ground to move people through a terrain where the Taliban—a listed terrorist entity in Canadian law—has seized control are not like anything we've ever seen before.

This is not as simple as sending a plane to a UNHCR-run refugee camp where we can simply have people board the plane, fly to Canada, land safely and focus on their resettlement once they arrive. This is a set of circumstances that is more challenging than any other refugee resettlement initiative imaginable. We are taking more people than any country on a per capita basis, and one of—

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Can you bring them here and do biometrics here? Is that something you can do?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

—the most substantial commitments in the world. Twenty-five thousand people is not insignificant.

On the question you're asking about biometrics, we want to insist that we have a rigorous process that allows people to have their security clearances done in advance so we can make sure that, when we make a commitment to a person that they're going to land in Canada, we can reliably project that we're going to be able to welcome and resettle them in Canada.

I'm going to continue to do everything I can until we make good to resettle at least 40,000 Afghan refugees. I believe it's the very least we can do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Minister.

We will proceed to Mr. El-Khoury.

Mr. El-Khoury, you will have five minutes. Please begin.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you.

First of all, I echo the comments of my colleague Alexis Brunelle‑Duceppe: you have been generous enough to come to committee meetings on several occasions to share your ideas and answer our questions, Mr. Minister.

We know that more immigrants are choosing to live in large cities, while rural and northern communities continue to experience severe labour shortages.

The data shows that we are making good progress. We see that in recent years, our policies and investments have helped increase the number of immigrants settling in smaller communities. However, we need to do more.

Mr. Minister, are you able to tell us what's being done to attract and retain more newcomers in small and rural communities?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you.

I come here often because I like the members on this committee.

Mr. El-Khoury, this is a personal question for me. One of the main reasons I wanted to get involved in politics is that I saw that social changes happening in the communities I represent in rural Nova Scotia were having a devastating impact that did not paint a pretty picture for the future of small-town, rural Canada.

I don't know that I've shared this with you before, but two of the hot issues during the 2015 election campaign in my own constituency involved the closure of the River John elementary school and the loss of the mental health unit at the Aberdeen Hospital, the largest regional hospital in northern Nova Scotia. The reason we had to see that school close was the depopulation of the small community. The reason we lost the mental health unit was the loss of a psychiatrist, and they couldn't safely operate it when a professional moved out of town.

One of the main things I hope to accomplish during my tenure, as long as I have the privilege of holding it, is to make sure that we share the benefits of immigration with every community, including small towns and rural communities. We have put a plan in place as part of this year's immigration levels plan to make sure that we can achieve that outcome.

You will probably notice that there is a significant increase in the regionalization of immigration numbers. There's a huge increase in the Atlantic immigration program where communities have the capacity to take more people. There's a significant increase in the provincial nominee programs where provinces can push people to communities that have the capacity to successfully settle them. This summer we increased and expanded the rural and northern immigration pilot program where we took feedback from the communities to better serve the interests of the communities that benefit from it. There are new flexibilities in the express entry system that allow us to do targeted draws, not just by region but also by the sector in which those regions have the highest labour market needs.

Every single day I ask myself what I can do to help small communities survive. Big cities will always be a magnet for newcomers. They are some of the coolest places to live anywhere in the world, with the most opportunities, but small towns are extraordinary places to live as well. Rural communities like the one I grew up in are extraordinary places as well, and to see that we've been able to put in place a plan that will help deliver more people to communities to make sure that our conversations are about growth, not schools and hospitals closing, is going to be one of the most important things I can imagine accomplishing in this job.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you. It's very encouraging to hear that, Mr. Minister.

Canada has a proud tradition of resettling refugees. We're considered a world leader in that regard.

I believe everyone here would agree that Canada must continue to support the world's most vulnerable people. We also need to face the fact that our economy needs workers.

What are you doing to balance the need to address significant gaps in our labour market with the fact that so many people around the world are displaced and need to resettle?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

There are a couple of different things.

We must recognize that there's no perfect plan.

That said, it's crucial that the government consider options for increasing the number of newcomers. With their skills, these individuals contribute to our economy.

We must also continue to welcome vulnerable people who need a safe place to live.

What we try to do is examine the needs of the Canadian economy and determine how many people we can bring in who will be set up for success. It's not just for them to be brought here, but to be set up for success. Changing the rules to make sure that the people who are going to be chosen to come in for economic reasons meet, in a more tailored way, the needs of the Canadian economy is a big part of the path forward.

At the same time, we want to continue to be a world leader. One of the beautiful things about Canada is the multipartisan support for large immigration numbers.

I'll conclude on this, Madam Chair, because my time is up. We have settled more refugees than any country in the world in the last three years. This is a tradition that I think we should continue, regardless of who is in government, for many years to come.

Thank you.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you.

We will now proceed to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for two and a half minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Barton, a former McKinsey executive, was appointed Canadian ambassador to China by Justin Trudeau. In 2016, Mr. Barton advised the government to take in 450,000 immigrants per year, which is the number of immigrants Canada accepts right now.

Mr. Minister, in your view, how much influence do the McKinsey firm and its executives have on Canada's immigration thresholds?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I do not know Mr. Barton. I did not know he made that recommendation and landed on the numbers included in this year's immigration levels plan upon independent reflection on what we ought to do and how many people we can process and successfully resettle in Canada.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

So you're saying that the McKinsey firm has no influence on the Government of Canada with respect to immigration thresholds.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I had no involvement with McKinsey. Is it possible that they have, in one of the previous reports, given feedback to the department?

I would defer to our officials if that's ever been the case, but it did not inform my decision-making.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I assume you're aware that a criminal investigation has been opened in France regarding the role the McKinsey firm played in the French elections.

Why is the Government of Canada continuing to do business with a firm that's under criminal investigation in another country?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I have no information on that.