Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 8th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting, but time is up for Ms. Rempel Garner. You will get an opportunity in the second round.

We will now proceed to Mr. El-Khoury. You will have six minutes. You can please begin.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank those with us today for having agreed to appear before the committee and answer our questions.

My first question is for Ms. MacIntyre.

In your response to recommendation 3, which was to create an emergency mechanism ready to be deployed in the event of future humanitarian crises, can you tell us more about any of IRCC's findings in its review of these emergency measures and crisis management?

If if not, could you give us some details about what will be looked at later?

[Christiane Fox]

I'm going to answer that question, Madam Chair, because the organization of the department is managed by the deputy minister.

To begin with, thank you for your recommendation Mr. El-Khoury.

I also pointed out that we were experiencing lots of crises at IRCC. There were the recent responses to what has been happening in Afghanistan and Ukraine; not so many years ago, there were crises in Syria and Haiti.

We closely reviewed the committee's recommendations to see whether we were properly organized and equipped to respond to the crisis. While looking at your recommendations, we told ourselves that there might be lessons to be drawn not only for the department, but also for our work with other partners: Global Affairs Canada, the Privy Council Office, the Department of National Defence, etc. We are looking at our structure, and what's needed in order to have a team with the right experience to get the job done.

Every crisis will have its own specific aspects and require a particular response; at the same time, some factors are common to all crises. The question is knowing how we can organize ourselves, as a department, to do a better job of responding to a crisis.

A review of options was carried out. There was some brainstorming within the department ensure that we would be in a better position to respond to crises and learn lessons from what we experienced.

That period was extremely difficult and chaotic. It's hard to compare our Afghanistan response to how we responded to other crises in different circumstances. The fact that the Taliban invaded and took control of Kabul made people's movements extremely difficult. It's still difficult. That's why working with partners in the region continues to be extremely important.

All of which is to say that we are examining our organization in order to be in a position to respond to crises, while continuing with the operational work of the department at a pace that will enable us to continue our efforts.

Thank you very much for your question. It was very apt.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

You said that you had appreciated our work. Thank you for that. The report is the outcome of several months of effort on the part of this committee to come up with our recommendations.

You mentioned the difficulties involved in getting to neighbouring countries. Do you call upon services from our allies, like Qatar or the United Arab Emirates? Based on your experience, what could facilitate the task of getting the people we want out of there?

[Christiane Fox]

Thank you very much for your question.

We are working closely with our partners, not only those in that region, but also in the United States as well as our federal departments. One very important point is that to leave Afghanistan, people need a passport. To leave neighbouring countries, exit permits are often required to take a flight to Canada or another country. That means that it's very important to have discussions to establish ties, partnerships and agreements that will truly facilitate transportation for them.

Since the tabling of your report in June 2022, 43 flights have been organized, with approximately 13,000 arrivals from Pakistan and Tajikistan. We have certainly made serious efforts since the tabling of your report.

Now, the real problem is finding ways of reaching people who are in Afghanistan. We need to work with our partners in the region, because it's not easy.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you.

I can tell you that your work is certainly appreciated by everyone: the international community, members of this committee and the government. We are exceedingly thankful.

I have some other questions. The response to recommendation 15 says that one of the few options for the safe passage of Afghan refugees through a third country is to maintain ongoing cordial diplomatic relations with that country to keep the exit routes secure. You clearly explained the situation earlier.

Can you tell us more so that we can determine whether it has been working successfully, and to what extent? If not, what are you thinking about doing?

[Christiane Fox]

Thank you for your question.

Neighbouring countries are in fact becoming an important factor for the safe exit of Afghans. It's also important not to forget the key relationships we have with international groups like the United Nations and the International Organization for Migration. These partners…,

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting, Ms. Fox. The time is up for Mr. El-Khoury. We will come back in the second round, if you want.

We will now proceed to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for six minutes.

Please begin.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

I'd like to point out in passing that I'm very proud of the structure of the emergency plan I proposed, and which I've been promoting for some time. It made its way into the recommendations that were taken into consideration. I understand that you are in the process of establishing this plan.

The plan was needed because a gap had to be filled. It should have already been in place. It must have had an impact on crisis management in Afghanistan and on IRCC management during that time. That's my understanding of it. Otherwise, a plan of that kind wouldn't be under development now.

[Christiane Fox]

Thank you very much.

There was outstanding teamwork in several departments on introducing a crisis management structure, one that made it possible to go and retrieve the most vulnerable people from Afghanistan.

When a new project is undertaken, whether to create a new program or to deal with a crisis, I think the responsible thing to do is remain open-minded and identify what has worked well in the past and where things can be improved.

I am in no way implying that the efforts were inadequate. I'd rather say that there's always room for improvement. International trends around the world are changing and as deputy minister, it's my role to learn from the international response and to apply lessons learned in any future crisis.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Would you agree with me that if there had already been a plan like the one you are now formulating, the approach to managing the crisis would have been different? That's only to be expected. It's not a matter of assigning blame. I'm simply saying that's the reality.

[Christiane Fox]

What I'm saying is that the teams met to implement a crisis management plan, one that yielded tangible results we can learn some lessons from.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

That wasn't my question, but thank you. I didn't get you to say it, but at least I tried.

Did you have discussions with other departmental offices? Did you have cross-departmental discussions when analyzing reports, or did you work in silos?

[Christiane Fox]

No, we worked closely with our colleagues in other departments.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

That's great.

So there were discussions with deputy ministers or your counterparts in other departments on reports like the one on the crisis in Afghanistan.

[Christiane Fox]

Yes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

All right.

Did you discuss recommendations 9, 10 and 11, about how the Canadian Criminal Code should be changed urgently, with your colleagues in other departments? I believe the report was released in June.

Can the words "on an urgent basis" be interpreted loosely in the various departments, or are they understood to mean what my fellow citizens and I think they mean?

[Christiane Fox]

Yes, we had conversations with our colleagues about all the recommendations, not only in connection with our response to the report, but also for coordination purposes. We had to decide on who would undertake the various aspects of follow-up action.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Where do things stand on recommendations 9, 10 and 11?

[Christiane Fox]

Yes, we discussed them. In connection with the Criminal Code, we discussed legislative options that would enable us to work with non-profit organizations on the ground.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

What's your definition of the word "immediately"?

[Christiane Fox]

It could mean different things, depending on the circumstances, but I think it means making changes once all aspects of a file have been studied and the consequences and implications have been understood.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

In that case, I'll give you some context by reading out the following sentence: "That the Government of Canada act immediately to implement United Nations Security Council Resolution 2615."

How would you interpret the word "immediately" in this context?

[Christiane Fox]

I interpret it within our working context, in which the work is done across several departments in a parliamentary system. It therefore means as quickly as our parliamentary system allows.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

United Nations Security Council Resolution 2615 was adopted on December 22, 2021. I remember it because it's the date of my parents' wedding anniversary. Six months after the adoption of the report and almost a year and a half after the adoption of the resolution, it still hasn't happened.

Do you believe it's reasonable for a G7 country to be unable to simply act upon a resolution adopted by the UN?