Evidence of meeting #70 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.
A recording is available from Parliament.
8:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
No, I'm not suspending the meeting right now. The meeting continues.
We have the subamendment on the floor.
Could I ask the clerk to please take the vote on the subamendment?
8:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
No one said.... I've asked already for the vote. The vote has to happen on the subamendment.
8:05 p.m.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
I was just getting clarification before I went to my question.
8:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
You asked me about the suspension. I told everyone we had the translation.
8:05 p.m.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Thank you.
In light of the new information, I find it relaxing. You are still respecting the fact that ceremonies have some importance, and that option is there. I think that's where the subamendment will maybe clarify that it's not the only way. You can actually click on it, and then still participate in a ceremony and have your grandparents, friends, family and your employer all attend.
I want to confirm that's what they'd be able to do in this scenario. They'd click on it, and then at a later date, they would go to a ceremony. They would be a citizen, effectively, once they click on it, if that's correct.
June 5th, 2023 / 8:05 p.m.
Director General, Citizenship Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Madam Chair, could I ask for it to be clarified? Is the question referring to the impact of the subamendment, or is the question about the regulatory proposal?
8:05 p.m.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Yes. I'm looking at the subamendment. The click-through option is what we're putting into the amendment. Basically, the idea there is that it better explains to people that they can click on it and still do the ceremony later on.
When do they actually officially become a Canadian citizen? Is it when they click on it or...? I'd like some clarification around that.
8:05 p.m.
Director General, Citizenship Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Madam Chair, in response to the member's last question, currently, an applicant becomes a citizen only once they take the oath of citizenship at a ceremony. That's to be clear on that. That would continue to be the case under the proposed regulatory change.
As I understand the member's question as it pertains to the subamendment, the subamendment states that the oath cannot be taken online and cannot be taken through a click-through option, if that's what's being used to describe the proposal. That would appear to mean that none of those flexibilities are available. It would appear to mean that an applicant would be required to take their oath at a ceremony, as now, before they could become a citizen.
It would appear to preclude any kinds of flexibilities for people who are disabled, who cannot afford to travel to a ceremony, who cannot afford to take a day off work or who may have a variety of circumstances that may justify some of those other options we have been discussing this evening.
8:05 p.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I was going to speak on the point of order, but thank you for giving me an opportunity to speak.
We, on this side, understand and see the motive the Conservatives have behind all this discussion that's going on.
I have a vote of thanks, Madam Chair, to all the staff and to the interpreters, who I know are putting in long hours. Particularly, when it comes to family matters, that becomes even more important. I would love to single out one person today, and it's my understanding that Ms. Girard's husband's birthday is today. We wish him a happy birthday, and we want to thank Ms. Girard for sacrificing that as well. Thank you.
8:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
Thank you, Mr. Dhaliwal.
Thank you, Ms. Girard. We really appreciate your being here in spite of your husband's birthday.
If we can have all the conversations done, we have a subamendment on the floor.
Go ahead, Mr. Redekopp.
8:10 p.m.
Conservative
Brad Redekopp Conservative Saskatoon West, SK
Thank you.
It's too bad that Mr. Dhaliwal and the Liberals forced poor Ms. Girard to miss her husband's birthday tonight by being here so late.
I just wanted to clarify one thing. This particular subamendment and amendment do not preclude Zoom. Ms. Girard, you did say that it would not give options, and that's not true. It wouldn't allow the one-click option, yes, that would be true, but this particular subamendment, or even the amendment, does not preclude the use of an online Zoom type of situation. I just wanted to make that clear.
I think it's important, again, for new citizens to not do this through some sort of a click-through process. That is not the intention. I believe, for most people, they are not so concerned about the last few months. That's why I am quite curious to see the data that supports this, because I can understand how people would want a shorter time period. That makes sense.
8:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
Mr. Redekopp, you have already requested the data. Ms. Girard mentioned that she doesn't have the data right now, and as soon as they can answer that, or get that data, it will be sent to the committee. This point has already been raised. Thank you.
We will go for a vote on the subamendment.
(Subamendment negatived: nays 7; yeas 4)
The amendment CPC‑6 is on the floor. We will go for a vote on that.
Mr. Mazier.
8:10 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
I'm still kind of perplexed. There is no allocation for the people who aren't connected. We're talking about an online world that just doesn't exist in rural Canada. How do we square that circle? What is the IRCC...? Is there a plan to work with Service Canada?
When we're looking at a whole new model, and we want to get down to an area, that's another thing where I kind of question this whole process. What's going to happen that's so much different from just having a new website or an amended website?
8:10 p.m.
Director General, Citizenship Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
As was mentioned, prior to the pandemic, ceremonies were all done in person. It was only during the pandemic that the additional option of virtual ceremonies was added. As was mentioned during the previous session, now we have a combination. For those participating online, where a Zoom connection isn't feasible, the in-person option continues to be there, and it will continue to be there.
As I mentioned at the outset, for the proposed regulatory initiative, it will be the applicant's choice. Applicants will know whether they have the ability to attend in person or whether they want to look at an alternate option that requires an online connection.
8:10 p.m.
Liberal
Marie-France Lalonde Liberal Orléans, ON
On a point of order, Madam Chair, I'm been trying, with all due respect, to be very careful in my interventions. At this point, Madam Chair, through you, I'm just a little bit curious or trying to understand the members' questions about their own amendments or subamendment. I don't know the English word, and I don't want to start using both languages. I would say you cannot be perplexed—if I could say this—about your own amendment. Either you are proposing an amendment or a subamendment, or you are not.
I don't think you can ask the official to justify the amendment and the impact of something you are proposing. You are debating your own amendment here.
Madam Chair, through you, I just want to make sure that we're staying on point. If I bring an amendment, I bring my point. I'm not trying to have a sense of perplexity here as to why this is happening.
8:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
Thank you, Ms. Lalonde.
Mr. Mazier, your last question was a repetition of the question that you had asked earlier, before we went to the subamendment. I want to make sure to remind you to please avoid repetition, and the questions should be relevant to the amendment or the subamendment. The officials are not here to justify what you are suggesting.
8:15 p.m.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
I have a point of order, Madam Chair. It was more a point of order on what Ms. Lalonde brought forward. Certainly over the course of debate when a party brings forward an amendment, it could be any party, where government members have brought forward amendments to their own bills, to fix something that testimony had brought up over the course of a study that would have resulted in.... She mentioned being “perplexed”. There are many examples where—
8:15 p.m.
Liberal
8:15 p.m.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
To the point of order, though, to be able to meaningful engage with the officials on a subject is very rightly—