Citizenship and Immigration Committee on June 5th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

But if he was finished—

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

He wasn't. He had just asked a question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Okay.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Go ahead, Mr. Mazier.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Now there's new information. They do have a choice right now. Is that correct?

[Nicole Girard]

Madam Chair, the proposal is at the proposal stage. It hasn't been implemented. Currently, applicants are required to attend a ceremony and take their oath at a ceremony, because that is the law. Applicants must take their oath at a ceremony in order to complete the final requirement to become Canadian citizens.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Here's the reality that I just happened to run across. I'm wondering if for people in the rural areas there will be any tools available. Who provides these tools for the local communities for the IRCC? Will they say, “Local citizens are having a ceremony, so here's what the IRCC will supply”? I don't know how that's all going to work. If something goes south, who are they going to talk to? Is there going to be a 1-800 number? Is there going to be a chat? Has there been any allocation or any thought put into that?

Right now, the problem with the websites in general, with any government website—I'm sure the witnesses have some experience with websites—is that government websites are very onerous. They don't act very well. They're not friendly. Then you're on the phone with somebody for many hours. A lot of these new citizens are just trying to keep a job and trying to do their best so that they can get approved to be good citizens.

How are we making that more friendly? How would this process work? What are the plans for that to make it more friendly?

[Nicole Girard]

Madam Chair, those kinds of considerations will have to be factored into more detailed implementation plans, which are ahead of us. It's in everyone's interest that applicants receive their citizenship in a timely way, and that this happen more quickly, which is the goal that the department is working towards.

Those kinds of practical considerations will have to be factored into the implementation plans, which are still to be developed because we are at the proposal stage at this point in time.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

I'll share with you one last story.

I happen to live here in Ottawa, in an apartment. The concierge downstairs was going to their citizenship award. It just happened I was checking in at 10 at night, and he said that he had a nine o'clock meeting and he would go online for this thing, I think it was next Monday. He said, “You wouldn't happen to have a Canadian flag, would you?” I asked what he meant. He said he'd like to have a backdrop to display that he's going to be a Canadian citizen. I grabbed him one and brought it back for him.

Then, it came to the day and he said, “I don't know, I have to stay here until midnight and it's nine in the morning.” He was going to to go. He was all excited. I said, “No, you go celebrate. You've done a great thing.” On going online, if it weren't for my encouraging him, he would have just gone and click, bang, he would have been, “There you go. I'm a Canadian citizen.”

What I ended up doing that day was that I made a nice certificate up for him. This was in downtown Ottawa. The guy was right here in our nation's capital and he didn't even think it was worth his time to go online to be a Canadian citizen. There's something wrong with that picture.

I ask you to please review that and that somehow, in these regulations, we reflect how much we do appreciate people becoming new citizens in this country.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you.

Mr. Aboultaif.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thanks.

I appreciate the department's being here with us today.

I have a few short questions.

First, has the department done a pilot project to make sure that the system that is proposed is going to work?

[Nicole Girard]

Madam Chair, it's not planned to have a pilot project, as far as I'm aware at this point in time. We do have implementation planning to do to support this proposal in the months ahead. Typically, when we develop implementation plans for any regulatory or legislative proposal, there's a lot of effort that goes into it on a lot of fronts to ensure that it can be implemented smoothly.

The department, the experts at this table and I, personally, have a lot of experience in this area in terms of what needs to go into it on the planning side to ensure a smooth implementation.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thank you.

Based on your knowledge with the application or software, how does the software determine that the applicant is in Canada? As per the existing rules, you have to be in Canada in order to be able to attend the ceremony personally and physically to receive your citizenship. Based on the design of the software, how do we determine that the applicant is in Canada?

[Nicole Girard]

We don't have the software or the system solution in place as of yet, but the member is correct that an important part of our process is verifying the identity of the applicant at different stages, as required in the process. Those verifications that need to be done will be completed as part of those plans to support the implementation of an initiative like this one, as we would with any initiative that we could be working on to implement in this area, including the current bill under study.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

With cyber-attacks, we know nothing's safe online these days. With such an important process, to your knowledge, are the firewalls or the cybersecurity aspects of this software developed, or yet to be developed, in order to be able to ensure that the process is safe and legitimate?

[Nicole Girard]

Madam Chair, the implementation of an initiative like this one, as with any implementation plans related to a regulatory or a legislative initiative like this bill, is linked to and reliant on Government of Canada systems that we already have in place, which respect a number of safety protocols and firewalls, as required by various Government of Canada policies. We have to operate within that framework as part of our implementation preparations.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

I have one final question. If an applicant failed to connect due to either a weak or an unavailable connection, what would happen? I guess they would be pushed to another date. Is there any idea how long this could be? Could it be three months or six months? Especially if the applicant is not at fault, is there any idea within the department on how this could be handled? Will it be consistently three months, six months—whatever—or will the computer be given another date automatically? How would that work?

[Nicole Girard]

The member is correct that we currently have systems in place where, if someone, through no fault of their own, is not able to attend their ceremony, we work diligently to obtain another date that's fairly close in time for the person. It's possible that some weeks may elapse.

The goal with an initiative like this one to further leverage technology is to really collapse the wait times for the applicant so that they don't have to wait so much time for that opportunity to come around again, and so that they can become a citizen sooner and attend the ceremony, if that was indeed how they opted to take their oath and complete the final requirement.

Thank you.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

I have one final question, if that's okay.

At some point, do you envision that this process can be done at the embassy level, since it's basically electronic? Has this been discussed within the department, or has it been requested? Again, if we can't guarantee or know that people who are applying are physically residing in Canada and applying for their citizenship, a convenient way to do so could be the next step that staff at the embassy level could say, “I can process it at the embassy level. I can initiate that call. I can have the program run from far away.” That could be what's coming next. Has this been discussed? Is it out of the imagination to think that it could happen one day?

[Nicole Girard]

Madam Chair, it hasn't been requested; however, there is already some legal authority in the legislation. I can tell you from years of experience in the citizenship program that those circumstances where somebody may be looking to complete their citizenship process from abroad tend to be exceptional.

I have served abroad in a couple of countries in north Asia and south Asia. I have encountered situations where someone was on the verge of having their citizenship ceremony, had a devastating death in the family and had to go home for a funeral. Sometimes they were back in their home country longer than they intended if they were having to settle estate matters and so on. Then you can have world events like the pandemic. Someone was on the verge of becoming a Canadian, but they couldn't physically get to their ceremony. Then the question is, if they're a permanent resident, whether they can benefit from evacuation procedures, or whatever the circumstances are.

There are occasionally exceptional circumstances where there is some leeway and we get requests, but it's not the norm, obviously. The vast majority, I would say, likely 99% of applicants, are here. They're fulfilling their requirements. They're anxious for their ceremony, but they would like it to happen sooner in time. The department is working on a number of initiatives to offer more options to people in a variety of circumstances, including the really exceptional ones that are through no fault of the person's own actions, as the member mentioned.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I have Mr. Redekopp.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Just on that note, Madam Girard, I guess the first question is this. Just to be clear, do you have to be in Canada to swear your oath?

[Nicole Girard]

Madam Chair, I'll have to go back and consult the legislation just to ensure I'm giving an accurate answer. We will provide that response to the committee in writing, if that's okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you.