Citizenship and Immigration Committee on June 14th, 2023

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

My advice to anyone who's dealing with IRCC or CBSA is that they should always show up for their appointments. They should always respect the communications they receive. They should also know that we're trying to come at this issue from a place of compassion. There are extraordinary students from around the world who want to come and study in Canada. They make immense economic and social contributions to our communities. The people you're describing meet the profile of so many international students I've met—people who do well in school and who want to contribute to our communities. In the future, our workforce is going to rely on people like these.

Our desire is to provide a quick remedy for them to allow them to remain in Canada and to have certainty that this unfortunate and fraudulent episode will not impact their immigration journey to our country. At the same time, for those who have committed fraud, we need to enforce the rules and demonstrate that there will be consequences for criminal activity or fraudulent behaviour.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Thank you for your leadership, Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Mr. Dhaliwal.

We will now proceed to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for two and a half minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister, a similar situation arose in Quebec in 2020. Once again, some Indian students had been defrauded. I don't know if you were made aware of that situation. IRCC denied those students their permits to study in private colleges in Quebec, but they had already paid their tuition fees. They weren't reimbursed, however, because the private colleges sought protection under the Companies’ Creditors Arrangement Act. I could send you the press clippings on the incident. We're starting to see that this kind of case is specific to India.

You asked me earlier if we had any suggestions to make. As you know, I always do. I give you about 14 proposals a week. We of the Bloc Québécois aren't here just to oppose; we're here to propose. I'm happy when you implement our proposals, but you could adopt more of them.

Are these repeated frauds a valid reason to start immediate bilateral discussions with India, by going through diplomatic channels first, then holding meetings with your Indian counterpart? You could also seek reciprocity with India regarding the agencies that do business with students wishing to study in Canada. Those agencies would then have to be certified by IRCC, even though they're established on Indian soil. You want suggestions? That's one. At some point, we have to stop merely reacting, and we have to work upstream.

Do you think my suggestion is valid?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you for your comment.

Look, you raise some interesting points. One thing I've come to understand in this particular job is that there are many issues that I think we need to reform over time, and the international student program is a great example. We actually just completed the consultation on the review of the international student program not much more than a week ago.

However, to your point about working with India, we had an initiative that we were working on in March of this year for the purpose of sharing good information to strengthen the integrity...and highlighting the extraordinary opportunity we have to continue to recruit students from that particular country.

As we go forward, we're looking at some new ideas to build a trusted institutions model with some of our post-secondary education partners who demonstrate that they have the capacity to monitor the integrity of applications, to treat students well when they arrive and to help them adjust to life in the workforce.

I think this is the next frontier for the international student program. If you have advice, as always, it would be more than welcome.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

The time is up, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

We will now proceed to Ms. Kwan for two and a half minutes.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you.

It sounds to me like the minister is suggesting the students should go through a dual process: through the Federal Court, if they embark on that process, as well as through this other process. It seems to me that it's a duplication of effort if that's the case, and there are limited resources on all fronts. I will further clarify this with officials and the minister at a subsequent meeting, because this is a critical point. I'm already getting emails from students saying, “What do we do now and how should this proceed?”

A critical question is also, when will the new task force start its work? What is the start date?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

It's already under way. The process has begun.

For the sake of clarity, on the duality of the process you described, one reason we had to launch a new process is that the remedies that we wish to issue may not be available. If someone today makes a misrepresentation—innocent, negligent or malicious—they may still be deported from Canada under the existing rules. The new process will help us to overcome that.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Then, on that basis, should the impacted students not embark on that process, with this new task force?

We have CBSA also looking into the situation. We have IRCC, the Federal Court and the IRB looking into the situation. We have limited resources here. If the minister is establishing a special task force, all of that will be housed in one place. This cohort of 57 students who have been identified and have been impacted should go through this new process.

Wouldn't that be the proper way of proceeding and the more efficient way of proceeding?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I appreciate the perspective.

The process that we've developed is only for people who are inadmissible to Canada and are facing a removal. The IRB process exists to determine whether a person is inadmissible or will be removed.

I won't offer advice on whether a person should or should not make a challenge in Federal Court. That is for somebody to be making a decision on their own on the basis of legal advice that they may take.

This provides a remedy for those who have gone through a process that did not have the ability to offer the same remedy.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I understand that, Minister, but you indicated that there are 57 students who have been identified and have been issued removal orders. They may not have gone through the Federal Court. They may have filed and not been heard yet.

However, for those who have received the removal order, should they not then embark on this new process under the task force?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

If you received a removal order, it would be because you have gone through the IRB process and have been found inadmissible. If you've received a removal order after that process, then yes, you should go through this process. The Federal Court is separate.

I would say, as well, that the existing process can do a better job of investigating criminality. We do believe there is significant criminality with some of the applicants who may find themselves in this position. IRCC, in this new process about the status a person may have in Canada, is not expert or built to make that kind of an assessment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you.

The time is up for Ms. Kwan.

We will now proceed to Mr. Redekopp for five minutes. Then we will end the first panel with Ms. Sahota for five minutes.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks, Minister, for being here.

You were speaking with Mr. Hallan about the fraudulent investigations and fraudulent actors. Could you please table the information that your department has found on that investigation?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

What information are you asking me to table?

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

You said that you had a department that was investigating fraudulent students and consultants and that you had obtained some results. It was just at the end of Mr. Hallan's conversation the last time.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

It would be helpful if you clarified with specificity, now or after the meeting.

One of the things that I will flag is that, to the extent that the CBSA is looking at an ongoing investigation into fraudulent activity, we obviously won't share information publicly that could compromise an investigation.

However, would it be possible to work through the chair to understand the specific information you're looking for?

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Maybe let's back up.

Have you done any investigating? We talked today about the students, and it's very important that we deal with them. The other issue is preventing this from happening again. Have you investigated and have you initiated investigations to stop that from happening again?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

My deputy, I think, would like to chime in. We're feeding each other numbers, but I don't want to speak over her.

[Christiane Fox]

I think it's important to know that this particular investigation was launched by the CBSA as a result of a tip. However, the department actually has ongoing investigations all the time. Right now, at this particular time, there are over a hundred investigations through the various lines of business.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Thank you.

Minister, when did you begin an investigation on this particular issue?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Christiane, do you have the precise date after we received the tip?

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Was it after the tweet, around there?

[Christiane Fox]

No, I think it was prior to that. The CBSA can say exactly when.

However, just to give you a sense of scale, if I may—

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Actually, if you could table that, that would be helpful. It would be great if you could do that.

Now, the process was focused on finding these fraudulent consultants. Is that the basis of the investigation? Did you find other fraudulent consultants in that process?