Evidence of meeting #71 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was students.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Christiane Fox  Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Michèle Kingsley  Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

I think the investigation actually would have begun a number of years ago. However, there are many investigations that are always going on within the department. This particular one involved a main group. There may be others who are tied to this, including people who have a presence in countries outside of India.

With respect to the people who may be involved, they could include all of the potential applicants who may or may not have known about the fraud. When you're asking what other fraudsters or bad actors we have discovered, there could be quite a significant range of people, depending on how broad a definition you take of “bad actor”.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Redekopp Conservative Saskatoon West, SK

It seems that the problem or the failure here is that there was a bad actor who provided fake letters, yet the department did not recognize that early and was unable to identify that in other cases.

Does the department, then, once it finds a bad actor, go to the other cases? Why didn't these students know that? How come that wasn't found?

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

We launched a new approach in 2018 to strengthen the verification of letters of acceptance. We focused on the letters that we had a reason to believe were not authentic.

If there is no reason, given the fact that we deal with many hundreds of thousands of applications in a given year, it would completely erode the ability of the department to productively and efficiently process student applications if we were to do an investigation into every letter of acceptance that is provided.

With regard to your earlier question that you started with to go down this road, I think that, going forward, we need to find a way to use new technology to better verify larger numbers of applications more quickly.

I'm sorry. You were trying to chime in, Mr. Redekopp.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Redekopp Conservative Saskatoon West, SK

Yes.

I guess what I'm really asking on this is whether there was one consultant who dealt with all these students or whether there were multiple consultants.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

There were multiple consultants.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Redekopp Conservative Saskatoon West, SK

Okay.

You talk about 2018. If I understand this, you had a manual process up to that point. Then it became automated. However, that's when we started to have problems.

Am I understanding that correctly?

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Not quite.

Christiane, would you like to describe the initiative that we launched in 2018?

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Redekopp Conservative Saskatoon West, SK

No, that's fine. I'm just kind of curious about that.

I guess one thing I want to point out, just to remind the committee, is that four times I tried to raise this issue here at the committee. Four times the Liberals and the NDP voted against investigating this. My motion did talk about pausing the deportations, investigating the problem, fixing the system and allowing the students to live their lives. I am glad that you finally took my advice and actually did this. As has been said before, this is going to be a very happy day for the students.

However, I guess the question still remains. There was inaction until there was a lot of newspaper action, a lot of political action. Why did it take so long to get to this point?

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

There was not inaction. The reality is that it's common for us to have many investigations, hundreds of investigations, going on at any given point in time that are trying to bust fraudsters who are seeking to abuse Canada's immigration system.

With respect to my knowledge of this specific example, of which there had been a pre-existing investigation that actually preceded my time as minister in this portfolio, it came to my attention in the spring, and I wanted to satisfy myself of the facts and also of the potential criminal elements, and then develop solutions, given that I came to understand there were likely innocent people who were mixed up in a fraudulent scheme.

With enormous respect, taking a month or two to sort out a complicated problem, I think, is reasonable. To suggest there was inaction on behalf of the department when there were live investigations going on for a number of years would not be an accurate depiction of what had actually taken place.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you, Minister.

We will now end this panel with Ms. Sahota for five minutes.

Ms. Sahota, go ahead.

June 14th, 2023 / 5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

To give some context, I know the Conservatives put forward a motion in this committee as well to say that legislation is to take precedence over all other issues in this committee. The fact that we couldn't get to this issue until now in the committee, I believe, was due to the committee deciding that legislation, the clause-by-clause we were going through, was very important.

I want to thank you, Minister, for listening carefully and coming up with a solution that is a balanced approach, because we were hearing some unbalanced ideas, like the NDP saying that blanket PRs should be given to everyone, and like the Conservatives saying that quick decisions should be made in haste, where I do believe you would not be able to accurately distinguish the good actors from the bad actors. We do want to do that, because we want to keep our immigration system's integrity. I think this solution will get us there.

The other thing is that I've been working on many different student issues for many years. I've also written to the ministers provincially responsible for schools in the various provinces, and particularly I've written to the one in Ontario. We're seeing a growing problem in Ontario with many new colleges popping up that I've never heard of, which don't have adequate space or teaching facilities and which are taking in large numbers of students. Our federal government has to comply with these lists of designated learning institutions, or DLIs, that are provided by the province.

I want to know if you have any comments that you can make as to the responsibility that the provinces also have in fixing this larger problem that we're beginning to see.

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

If you'll allow me, the two issues that you mentioned, sort of coming to ground on this issue and the broader issue around DLIs, both speak to the need for co-operation. I think what we've identified through this process.... As you know, we've had phone calls, emails and messages back and forth about this particular issue, as I've had with members of different parties, and I find that when we take these ideas from different sources, we can identify what the real issues are.

I think it has led to a workable solution that's going to help protect people who deserve protection in this instance and that's going to hold accountable those who seek to abuse the system. I think the same is true with designated learning institutions. We need to do a better job, not only as a government but also as a society, of working across levels of government and of working with institutions to better monitor the system.

The reality is—at the risk of getting ahead of myself, given where we are from a policy perspective today—I've heard a lot of stories that really trouble me about designated learning institutions. The vast majority are good actors, make no mistake, but when I hear the stories of students who come to this country, who tell me they feel like they were sold a false bill of goods and who are enrolled in a program that may have 1,000 students but with room in the facility for a few dozen students, it suggests to me that there are international students being exploited in this country.

Look at the number of students who were attending brand new institutions that have popped up and who have inadequate mental health and housing supports. I hear stories about people who are being promised a pathway to permanent residency that does not exist for them. I hear promises being made to international students like, “You can come through the student program, but really, you know you just want to work in this country.” That is not what the program is about. We need to work very carefully with institutions so that people know what they are getting themselves into and that they are applying for the appropriate programs.

We need to work with provincial governments, which are responsible for identifying DLIs that have access to the program, to ensure that they're willing to hold accountable the institutions that are not treating students fairly but instead are seeking to profit off them as individuals, not caring whether they are exploited or set up for success. The vast majority of institutions are good players. We're working towards developing a trusted partner model with institutions that we know are good actors and that have a strong history of working with students and of respecting them.

The international student program is contributing in excess of $22 billion annually to this country. Forget for the moment that the economic and social benefits we derive are enormous. If students are making that contribution to us, I think we owe it to them to be honest about what they're getting themselves into, to not exploit them and to set them up for success. As it turns out, making that happen can be challenging, but it's an effort worth making.

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

As a short follow-up to that, one of the reasons, I believe, the provinces also have it within their power to fix the system is that I'm hearing from students that although we've created a system in which students can apply for themselves, some of these colleges are acting in collusion with agents abroad who recruit students, and the only way they accept these students is if a student applies through their agent. The student never has the capability of calling the school or finding out directly from the school whether or not they've even been accepted. The school's response at times has been, “Talk to your agent,” which shouldn't be the case.

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

To the extent that there are examples you can provide to our office, please know that we will task the department to investigate them. To the extent that institutions are found to, in a systemic way, be bad actors, they should be shut down. This is not okay. We need to address this head-on. The challenge we face is that it's not just the federal government that holds all the policy levers. We need to work with institutions. We need to work with provincial governments. To the extent that parliamentarians can shine a light on bad actors who seek to abuse the system, you would be doing a service to your community and to your country, and I would appreciate partnering with you any day that you wish.

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you.

The first panel comes to an end. On behalf of all the members of this committee, I would really like to thank you, Minister, for coming and discussing a very important issue.

We will suspend the meeting for two minutes so that you can leave, and then we will go into a round of questioning with the two officials.

Thank you, Minister.

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Thank you.

I'm glad to have met with you.

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Members, please take your seats so we can start.

For this panel, we have Ms. Fox and Ms. Kingsley with us.

We will go directly into the round of questioning. We will start with Mr. Kmiec for six minutes.

Mr. Kmiec, please go ahead.

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Thank you, Chair.

My first question is going to be on the DLIs specifically.

With this 2018 system that was introduced, there has to be a method for tracking fake admission letters. How does the system work right now? I submit an application. I have a fake admission letter—I don't know that—so what happens?

5:55 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Christiane Fox

I would say that the 2018 process is something that we need to build on and move forward on. The 2018 process was very much about a centre of expertise. If an officer or an agent in admissions were reviewing a case, they would send it to this group on the suspicion that there may be some fraud. They would use some of the tools that we have to assess whether or not...so it was a kind of support.

Where we need to go—and I think this is where the department is moving—is to an actual data-sharing agreement between institutions, DLIs, and the department, so that we have a—

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

You don't have that right now.

5:55 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Christiane Fox

We do not have that right now.

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

I have some of the letters on my tablet here. I've looked at them. At least in one case, the birthdate is different on the letter from the passport and the visa that was given. That person was still able to cross the border and CBSA let them in, even though there are three different birthdates on three different ones.

We've heard now that there are 87 cases. Is it the same visa officer who reviewed them all and issued the study permit or are there multiple different officers who issued them, or is it a machine?

5:55 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Christiane Fox

I don't think I have 87 cases anywhere. Originally, CBSA started with—

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Sorry, it was 82.

5:55 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Christiane Fox

Yes, 82 cases were referred to the IRB.

I think when we started this process, through the tips, the joint investigations and the investigative work, it was determined that there were about 2,000 cases that were kind of suspicious. That, then, was narrowed down to about 1,400 cases. What we looked at in those 1,400 cases was how many of them were actually refused. I'll give you the precise number. Out of those 1,485, 976 applicants were refused because fraud was detected.