Evidence of meeting #83 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was employers.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON
Thank you.
My question is for Ms. Ramo.
I live in a community, Haldimand—Norfolk, that is highly dependent and reliant on foreign workers for agricultural processing. I've spoken to many workers and farmers. I met a worker who's been here for eight years. Both the worker and the farmer have been trying to find a way for this person to get their permanent residency.
I know there was previously the live-in caregiver program. They had, after two years, the ability to apply for permanent residency in a separate category. Is this something you are contemplating in this program? What are the similarities between the two programs?
4:20 p.m.
Chair, National Immigration Law Section, The Canadian Bar Association
One of our recommendations is that there be a specific path to permanent residency for workers such as agricultural workers. My colleague referred earlier today to an agri-food program that has been allowing for permanent residency applications. The allocation of spots for that program is very small.
You referred to the live-in caregiver program. That was a specific program with specific criteria for those workers. That's the same idea. It's a similar program with specific criteria for agricultural workers and low-wage workers that doesn't pit them against and have them compete head-on with high-skill workers. There is flexibility on things like language and education.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON
My next question pertains to the low-skilled sector. It was raised that they should have their permanent residency upon arrival. Can you name for me one other NOC classification for low-skilled workers that has that in place?
4:25 p.m.
Chair, National Immigration Law Section, The Canadian Bar Association
I'm not aware of any who have the ability to enter...unless they qualify through what's called the skilled worker program, which is when they apply for permanent residency from outside of Canada based on their skills, occupation and previous experience. It would be very difficult for a low-skilled worker to achieve sufficient points to access that program.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
Thank you.
We will go to Madam Zahid for five minutes.
Please go ahead.
November 9th, 2023 / 4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Thanks to all the witnesses for appearing before the committee.
My first question is for Ms. Kwan.
What do you think the government could do better to make sure that all the temporary and migrant workers who come here are aware of their rights and, most importantly, that they are able to exercise those rights?
4:25 p.m.
Senior Researcher, Canadian Labour Congress
Thank you for your question.
I think it's very important that all workers, but especially migrant workers, understand their rights when they're in Canada and how to exercise those rights. The problem is that when you have a closed work permit, it doesn't matter what shiny strong rights you might award to them—which is what I said earlier in my statement—because if they don't have the ability to actually use them and fight for them, then it's very difficult.
I believe the closed worker permit under the temporary foreign worker program takes them away. We give them the same rights as Canadians and permanent residents, but then we give them this other thing called a closed work permit, which takes away their ability to exercise their rights.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON
Thank you, Ms. Kwan.
In regard to keeping a balance between the rights of employers and those of the people here as temporary foreign workers, what do you think is the best way? Do you have any examples of how other countries are doing these programs?
4:25 p.m.
Senior Researcher, Canadian Labour Congress
I think there are examples across different countries, but I also think we have a system that we're very invested in. We need to look at revamping the temporary foreign worker program so that, as I said before, it's up to date and we are indeed being very competitive with other countries.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON
How do we keep the balance? Employers spend a lot of money in getting the LMIAs, going through that process and making sure the rights of the temporary foreign workers are also protected.
4:25 p.m.
Senior Researcher, Canadian Labour Congress
I understand that.
First of all, I do think that there needs to be a big revamp of the program, but the other thing, which we've mentioned before, is the IMP, the international mobility program. That program has open work permits. It has people picking apples, people providing child care and people doing all sorts of so-called low-wage work, yet we're not fussing and worrying about where those folks end up. I think that on one hand we have a similar kind of parallel system doing similar things on both sides, but we basically have more judgment on one side, which is the racialized low-wage workers under the TFWP.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON
Thank you.
My next question is for Ms. Ramo.
If the government were to do away with the closed work permits and issue to all temporary foreign workers completely open work permits, what do you think would happen in that scenario? What is your opinion?
4:25 p.m.
Chair, National Immigration Law Section, The Canadian Bar Association
It is a very broad stroke for a variety of different programs.
Going back to the issue of the international mobility program, there are open permits under the international mobility program, such as the postgraduate work permits that are given to individuals who have completed education in Canada. We have spouses of foreign workers who are given open work permits. However, we also have a broad variety of closed work permits under the international mobility program for intracompany transferees, for individuals who bring significant benefit to Canada and for reciprocity among professors. The list is at somewhere between 100 and 200 different programs, and all of those are closed. I think if all of these work permits became open, it would be detrimental to Canada.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON
Just quickly, when many temporary foreign workers come here, their spouses are getting open work permits. Could you indicate how you think that is working?
4:30 p.m.
Chair, National Immigration Law Section, The Canadian Bar Association
It's a substantially smaller number of people. They're the spouses of high-skilled workers who are going to be in Canada for more than six months. It is a tool to allow for those types of transfers, because in today's society, where most people are in dual-income households, it has become very difficult to attract foreign nationals to work in Canada if the spouse is not able to work.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
Thank you, Madam Zahid. That was right on five minutes.
We will now go to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for two and a half minutes, plus the accommodation of French to English to Spanish.
4:30 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Escobar, you say that you work with vulnerable workers to help them get open permits because they are vulnerable or there has been abuse.
You may be familiar with RATTMAQ, which is based in Quebec. It is an organization that advocates on behalf of migrant farm workers. The people in that organization came to me between the end of 2022 and the beginning of 2023 to tell me that their applications for an open permit because of vulnerability, which would ordinarily be a very easy process, had suddenly and virtually systematically been denied.
Have you had the same problem?
4:30 p.m.
National Representative, United Food and Commercial Workers Union Canada, Canadian Labour Congress
Yes. We have the same findings as RATTMAQ. We collaborate with many community agencies like this across Canada and have identified that, for some unknown reasons, open work permits for vulnerable workers are denied. For instance, during the first two years of the program, we had a very high number of approvals, and it is now very low.
Even though we are providing very strong documentation to show that workers have experienced abuse, we have witnessed that for some unknown reasons their claims are denied.
4:30 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
So you have never known why it happened.
Is that correct?
4:30 p.m.
National Representative, United Food and Commercial Workers Union Canada, Canadian Labour Congress
That is correct.
4:30 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Right. Thank you, Mr. Escobar.
Mr. Chair, Mr. Anavisca has not had an opportunity to say much. Because this is one of the last times he will have an opportunity to give the committee a message, I am going to give him my remaining speaking time, if you will allow me.