Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2023

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

All of us on the committee here want to protect the workers. Rather than implementing open permits, do you have any recommendations to enhance the current system to better protect these workers?

[Mark Chambers]

I did mention in my opening remarks that there's an opportunity where, if employees feel they're not happy where they are, they can apply to another employer. If those employees look at the job bank—because every employer trying to recruit temporary foreign workers will be advertising on the job bank—they'll be able to find employers with LMIAs and they can apply to them. That's a 10-day process.

The government could create something a little quicker than that where it's “click and print”. You go online, apply for the permit, click and print it out, and you're done. Then the next day you could leave, if you feel it's a problem.

If workers feel that they're vulnerable and need protection, they can call the hotline. That triggers an investigation. If the officer deems that the call warrants immediate action, they can grant that individual an open work permit and they get removed from the workplace. Then an investigation on the employer occurs.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

The Canadian Bar Association has recommended that workers have access to clear and transparent information in their own language about their rights under the TFWP.

I believe this isn't a bad idea. Do you support that recommendation?

[Mark Chambers]

I do. When workers arrive, we give them a pamphlet with all the information they need, including the hotline they can call if they feel there's a problem.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

My last comment is that housing is an issue. From what I've seen in the last five years, it's improved considerably.

Can you expand on that?

[Mark Chambers]

The challenge with the housing is that under the agriculture stream, for any on-site housing, all you can charge is $30 a week. In essence, that program starts driving you towards doing more bunk-style housing, whereas in our organization, up until this point, on the farms we've encouraged that at least everyone has their own bedroom. Sometimes they have a house because they bring their families. Then they transition to PR.

The $30 a week doesn't make economic sense. Then you have the challenge that when those workers want to move to town or buy their own house, there's sticker shock. They've been immune to it with such a low rate. We need to try to find some common ground that makes a little more sense for what can be charged.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you.

We will go to Ms. Kayabaga, and then to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe afterwards.

Ms. Kayabaga, you have six minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you.

I welcome the witnesses to our committee.

I would like to ask questions of Mr. Chambers.

The government launched the open work permits for vulnerable workers program in June 2019. Since this opening, we've seen up to 1,320 work permits in this year alone.

What are the different ways we can improve this program to better suit the needs of migrant workers facing abuse?

[Mark Chambers]

That's a great question.

If employers are abusing the program or abusing workers, they should be blacklisted and kicked out. I'm all for that, and that currently exists. If an investigation occurs that is driven by a worker's complaint and the employer is deemed to be significantly at fault or creating abusive situations, then that employer does get blacklisted and can no longer use the temporary foreign worker program to hire workers.

I'm fully supportive of that, because you get a few situations where that occurs and then everyone gets reduced to the lowest common denominator. It affects the employers who want to use the program correctly. I think we need to continue to push for that, but it needs to be swift and quick.

It's a double-edged sword because the other part of it is that sometimes—and more recently there have been lots of occasions—false accusations have been made. Investigations have been done on employers and there are actually no problems whatsoever. The employer's been told by ESDC that they have some problematic employees.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you for that feedback.

I was specifically talking about the workers who have been found to be abused.

Anyone here in the room can answer my next question. It's about the different changes that you would suggest that we can bring to reinforce our government's ability to inspect employer compliance. If you want to touch, at a high level, on the first question within my time limit as well, I'd be happy to hear from you.

Anyone can answer this.

[Fernando Borja Torres]

I will respond quickly and then give time to my colleagues.

I think the government is going in the right direction with the changes they made with the ESDC in order to be more present in the field, with the subventions that they are giving organizations in the field to help the workers better understand their rights with all sorts of activities for the workers. In Quebec, there are 31 organizations financed by the federal government. The way ESDC is structured to have different divisions looking at different things in the program is also helping in order to advance things so employers recognize their obligations towards the workers. The workers also get to learn their rights.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Madame Gagnon and Mr. Pilon, do you have anything to say?

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Mr. Chair, maybe I can ask the next question. The witnesses can then answer the next question, because I like the answer I got.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Certainly, Honourable Member, it's your time.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Maybe Madame Gagnon can answer this question.

Are there any measures you would like to see the federal government implement to ensure that migrant workers are aware of the open work permit for vulnerable workers and their rights as workers here in Canada?

[Denise Gagnon]

First of all, we already have one measure: every time temporary foreign workers arrive at the airport, we give them a booklet explaining the relevant regulations. Since labour is a provincial jurisdiction, all Quebec regulations are clearly explained in the booklet. This tool enables them to record their hours of work to ensure they are properly compensated in accordance with their contracts.

Mr. Pilon could tell you more about inspections. The biggest problems stem from the fact that occupational health and safety and accident prevention rules are hard to enforce. This causes serious problems for workers. For example, workers may suffer occupational accidents or injuries forcing them to remain in Quebec, far from their families, until they receive rehabilitation treatment because they can't afford to return to their home country for care.

We have also received many well-founded complaints. There was the case of Mr. Lemay, whose permit was revoked. That case affected more than 30 workers who had actually been victims of abuse. We intervene in workplaces together with the police in some instances. I repeat that not all employers act this way, but a percentage of them do, and that hurts the entire sector.

For that percentage in Quebec, we need to reinforce workplace inspection mechanisms and conduct surprise visits. When visits are planned, everything's always in order, everything's beautiful, everything's perfect, and nobody talks when the inspector arrives on site. Consequently, the workers remain subject to the same rule of silence in the matter.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

I understand. That's not the case for all workers, but we're discussing this today and trying to amend the legislation because there have been quite serious violation cases.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you, Ms. Kayabaga.

We will now go to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, and then Ms. Kwan afterwards.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, you have six minutes. Please go ahead.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Very quickly, I'm going to give notice of a motion that we will debate on another day. I would like the committee to devote as much time as possible to the witnesses.

So I would like to introduce the following motion:

That the committee invite the Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship and the Minister of Public Safety, Democratic Institutions and Intergovernmental Affairs to appear as soon as possible, together for two hours, to answer the committee’s questions concerning migrant trafficking and smuggling and the measures the government intends to implement to put an end to these illegal activities that exploit vulnerable people and compromise their safety.

We will discuss this later, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, witnesses. Welcome to the committee and thank you for being here.

Early last year, a meeting was held involving you people from RATTMAQ, me, my team, that of MP Joël Lightbound and the minister's office concerning a situation that alarmed us: you had suddenly received a number of refusals of applications for open permits for vulnerable workers.

Has that situation been resolved? Did you find out what happened?

[Michel Pilon, Legal Coordinator, Réseau d'aide aux travailleuses et travailleurs migrants agricoles du Québec]

Fortunately, we finally got some good decisions after Mr. Lightbound intervened.

The refusals started to appear in January. We received eight negative decisions, although the cases seemed to be very similar to previous ones. There was quite a radical change in that regard after you intervened.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

However, we didn't find out what had happened.

[Michel Pilon]

No. We don't know which official made those decisions. We just have a number. Curiously, it was the same number each time.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

You can count on me; we're going to try and shed some light on this. This matter is far from over.

On the one hand, there are some good employers who see that we're conducting this study on closed work permits and who say we shouldn't accuse everyone. I agree with that. Most employers have good relations with temporary foreign workers.

On the other hand, however, the UN special rapporteur tells us that the closed permit system is a hotbed of modern slavery. The status quo is clearly no longer sustainable.

I would like to hear your opinion on the UN special rapporteur's remarks about the closed worker permit system. Do you think this is an attack on all employers?

[Michel Pilon]

No, it's not an attack on all employers. The problem isn't the employers; the problem is the program.

[Denise Gagnon]

It's the system.