Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2023

[Michel Pilon]

It's the system that's the problem. Unfortunately, this is why there are employers like Jean Lemay. It isn't just Jean Lemay. I've been handling temporary foreign workers since 2008, and I've seen all kinds of conditions on farms, including slavery-like situations.

I agree with you that most employers treat their workers well. The problem isn't the employers, as I told you. The problem is the system. It has to be changed because it unfortunately promotes situations like that of Mr. Lemay and others that we could name.

When an employer tells employees that he owns them because he has paid money, that raises serious questions. That's actually what he said. Then, after we had removed the workers from there, he said they had escaped. So the following question immediately occurred to me: were there bars on the windows of their bedrooms? When you're dealing with this kind of employer, that's when you begin to see that, in certain situations, employers feel that temporary foreign workers belong to them.

It's unfortunately true that we sometimes encounter cases like that of Mr. Lemay. The last time, we removed 243 workers from there. That's a lot of people. Of course, Mr. Lemay has lost any right to use the temporary foreign workers program. I don't know if you saw it, but the program La Facture devoted a whole episode to that case, and I was among the guests.

However, Mr. Lemay is still active. He uses a former branch of the Caisse populaire in Saint-Jude, and he still has his little trafficking operation. When are we going to stop this guy? It makes no sense. He has two or three buses for workers with tourist visas or outright illegal workers whom he recruits and then sells to various farmers. That's the situation.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

There's an initiative in Quebec. Last week, we heard from representatives of the Union des producteurs agricoles, and they told us about the round table on temporary foreign agricultural workers established in 2018 with the Fondation des entreprises en recrutement de main-d'œuvre agricole étrangère, or FERME, a representative of which we have with us today. This is a unique initiative in Quebec that's probably making it possible to do more.

Wouldn't it be a good idea for the rest of Canada to follow the example of the organizations that created that round table? Perhaps we should all explain it to colleagues in the rest of Canada.

[Denise Gagnon]

Absolutely. A number of us organizations are sitting at that round table, and we don't all have the same interests. For example, the Canadian Human Rights Commission is a member. All sectors are represented on it, including health and safety. Together we can identify a number of problems and make progress.

It isn't just FERME's round table. Many other organizations have joined in order to identify the problems, including AGRIcarrières, for example, and labour organizations such as Travailleurs et travailleuses unis de l'alimentation et du commerce, or TUAC.

I think everyone agrees that the idea isn't to point fingers but rather to put the finger on what's causing problems in the system. That's why we think we need to have open work permits.

Food security is important for Canada and Quebec. If we, as a country, say it's important, why would it be solely up to employers to fund the influx of workers? Maybe there has to be a serious conversation on the subject as well. As the UPA representatives said last week, the food security index is trending down in Quebec. It has reached 30%.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I'm sorry, but my time is up. I'll try to get back to this subject on my next turn.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

We'll now go to Ms. Kwan.

Ms. Kwan, you have six minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to say thank you to all the witnesses, as well.

I want to carry on the conversation with responses from Ms. Gagnon and Mr. Pilon.

On the issue of temporary foreign workers, I understand you're indicating there is a system problem. The system, of course, creates an environment where there's an imbalance of power. The reality is that temporary foreign workers have zero power. They are entirely reliant on their employer. If they complain about the employer, they get fired from the job. They are then in deep trouble, because they're not making the money they need to send home to support their families, for example. From that perspective, in that power imbalance environment, there can be abuse that occurs. You have cited some horrific examples to that end.

In order to create a better balance of power, some advocates have advanced the notion of an open work permit. That is to say, the employers would have to treat these employees fairly. If they don't, they will move on somewhere else. Some people argue that having an open work permit means you can't keep them in the sector, because they can go anywhere. However, as with all jobs, to be competitive and get good workers, you need to pay them and have good employment conditions.

I wonder whether you can comment on the need for system change. Should the government be considering an open work permit option for migrant workers?

[Michel Pilon]

At RATTMAQ, we're having a lot of discussions with organizations that are involved in the round table, particularly the UPA and FERME, which is represented here today by Borja Torres. We're in favour of the idea of having an open permit, but we'd also agree on a sectoral permit. We clearly understand that if completely open work permits were available tomorrow morning, some agricultural sector workers would prefer to work at Olymel for $22 an hour, for example, rather than work on a farm for minimum wage. So it's important to create sectors.

We'd undoubtedly be open to the sectoral aspect of open permits. However, it would be important for the sectors to be clearly defined. They shouldn't be too limited, or else we'd revert to the same situation as in the case of closed permits. The idea is to establish larger sectors, which would enable workers to offer their services to other businesses should problems arise in the business where they work. For example, they could go to work on another farm, in the case of the agricultural sector, but the same thing would apply in other sectors.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you.

I will jump in with my question, because I have limited time.

You noted that you support an open work permit, although you would want to see a sectoral open work permit. Your comment was that if there were a general open work permit, the workers could choose, for example, to work for a grocery store as a cashier. Maybe that's the case, or maybe it isn't, in terms of the competition. Doesn't that raise this question, though? If wage is the issue, shouldn't the employer at the farm increase the wages, so they can attract the workers?

I say this with all sincerity. I come from an immigrant family. Our whole family immigrated here. We had permanent residence status. When my mother first went to work, she went out and worked as a farm worker. She made $10 a day to support a family of eight. That is the reality. You're right. After two years, she got some work experience and then moved to the next stage as a minimum-wage worker—a dishwasher at a restaurant—until she retired at 65.

You're right. People look for better opportunities as they gain more experience. Doesn't that raise the whole point that you, as an employer, need to have good working conditions as well as competitive wages, in order to attract the workers and retain them?

[Michel Pilon]

I can give you a quick answer to your question by saying that RATTMAQ is a member of the coalition to raise the minimum wage in Quebec. It's clear to us that the minimum wage has to rise because people who are paid minimum wage clearly live below the poverty line. The coalition is called Minimum $18 now, but we're increasingly aiming for a minimum wage of $20 an hour in Quebec. At least that's the coalition's view.

We're definitely in favour of raising the minimum wage in Quebec.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

On that note, the employer of course has the choice not to just stick with the minimum wage. They can offer higher wages right off the top, and not just go with the minimum wage requirement. I certainly support minimum wages going up. People cannot live on minimum wages, and that is absolutely the reality.

On the open work permit question as well, right now the government actually allows people to get an open work permit if they're subject to abuse, and that's after they have already experienced the abuse. You don't see people fleeing the sector. I have known workers who have been subjected to abuse, and with the help of the union, particularly the UFCW, they have gone to other employers, who were not abusing them, and stayed in the sector. These workers want to work. They want to make a good living to support themselves and their families.

On the notion of an open work permit, the idea that we have to hold on to an environment so they cannot leave, with a sectoral open work permit or a closed work permit, isn't that, in and of itself, part of the abuse of the system?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Time is up.

If Mr. Pilon or Madame Gagnon could quickly answer the question, go ahead, please, with a quick answer.

[Denise Gagnon]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Kwan, what you say is very important because the system is a problem even in unionized workplaces.

To cite a very specific example, a greenhouse in Saint-Félicien hired nearly 400 workers, but working conditions there were so harsh that all Quebec workers left. What's happening is that the Mexican workers who were members of the union committee were called back for a contract this year. So you can say they're losing their right to organize collectively. You can clearly see in that instance that the system is causing the problem.

The problem that arises in the case of open permits for vulnerable workers is that people are then blacklisted and aren't called back. We do follow-ups in Guatemala and Mexico. We're going to hold an international conference on this and other matters in December so we can come up with some potential solutions to the problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you very much, Madame Gagnon.

We'll go to Mr. Kmiec for five minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to go to Mr. Chambers first.

You briefly mentioned farm inspections, and I want to ask about the experience both your company and the producers in your sector have had with the program in 2022 and 2023.

[Mark Chambers]

It's a bit frustrating, because if you get a report of a situation at work that triggers an inspection, everything that is in the works is on hold at that time, so you're guilty until proven innocent. I think the program works backwards, because it should be like Canadian law: innocent until proven guilty. When an inspection occurs, business should be able to carry on. If you have LMIA applications in process, those should continue to go through the process of being approved and so on.

If you're deemed to be at fault, it might be just a re-education, and that can be corrected. If you're deemed to be significantly problematic, then, again, I'm all for your being booted out of the program if you're way offside and creating a vulnerable situation.

To add to that, I think that sometimes what happens is that some employees are making reports of situations that are untrue. I know personally that our company has had some inspections and audits done, and we've passed with flying colours. It's the same employee reporting different things that are unsubstantiated.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

On ESDC's program, from the data I have, between April 1, 2022, and November 28, 2022, 95% of these farm inspections to look at the working conditions after a complaint has been made are being done virtually. Is that your experience as well, that lots of these inspections are still being done virtually?

[Mark Chambers]

That is true, yes. That's our experience.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

What do you think of that? What do employers think of that?

[Mark Chambers]

I think if it can be done virtually, that's fine.

Personally, I think if someone is reporting a problem in the workplace, if it's in a greenhouse or on a farm, then it would only make sense for somebody to get there to look at it first-hand, but that individual has to understand the business. You can't come to a hog farm, for example, and say it's dusty, and then someone from Ottawa shows up and says, “Oh yes, it is dusty.” Well, of course it's dusty. It's a pig farm with feed.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chambers.

I'm going to move on.

Now I'd like to talk to the witnesses in the room about the integrity services branch's investigator training program.

According to the figures I've received from the department, in 2022, only 759 persons received training enabling them to investigate working conditions on farms. Do you think that's enough?

Do you think investigations should be conducted in person or virtually? As I told Mr. Chambers, 95% of producer inspections are conducted virtually.

What do you think about that?

The witnesses may answer one at a time.

[Michel Pilon]

RATTMAQ frequently files complaints with the federal government. The main issue raised in those complaints isn't the fact that inspections are being conducted virtually rather than in person on the farm but that we never get any feedback. We're told it's confidential. Consequently, it's hard to file complaints and continue doing so when we get no feedback, particularly since workers that we talked to on the ground haven't seen any change, even after complaints were filed. So there is a problem.

We're told it's for reasons of confidentiality, but, when we file complaints, we like to get some feedback on what happened. Did an investigator go to the farm? We don't know. We know nothing at all. We know that investigations are being conducted, but that's all.

I filed I don't know how many complaints against Mr. Lemay. In that case, investigations were conducted and he actually lost his permit. However, I file hundreds of complaints a year.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

What do you think, Mr. Borja Torres?

[Fernando Borja Torres]

According to FERME, on-site inspections would be welcome. Most of our members meet requirements, and we want to demonstrate that to Service Canada officers. We'd like the programs to be administered with less red tape and more people on the ground. It really would be helpful to see what actually happens on the farms.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

According to the figures I have, one file was opened for 11 on-site visits conducted by inspectors in Quebec for the work period from April 1 to November 28, 2022. Things may have changed since then, but I doubt it.

Don't you think that the ratio of in-person visits to virtual visits should be reversed?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

The time is up, but a short answer would be appreciated.