Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 28th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

I call the meeting back to order.

Mr. Redekopp, you have five minutes. Please go ahead.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Thank you.

Mr. Miller, in September the senior immigration and housing minister, Sean Fraser, said the government wants to “align our immigration policies with the absorptive capacity of communities that includes housing”. When the government drastically increased the international student program from 350,000 under Harper to, as you mentioned, the hockey stick of 1.4 million that now exists under Justin Trudeau, did you consider the pressure this increase would put on the housing situation in Canada?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Just on the characterization, I think it's clear that the federal government didn't drastically increase it. This program for 40 years has not had a cap on it.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Did you consider housing when you were working with that program?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I think what we did was we trusted provinces to regulate their designated learning institutions. In a context of bringing people in with $40,000 or $50,000 for an educational experience, you would expect those institutions to be responsible and to provide access to housing. It's clear that when you look at the volume—and it's part of the reason we took this measure—that there has been an impact of that volume on affordability and cost of shelter.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

I guess my point is that you said you took this measure, so you had data to do that. Did you consider housing when you took this measure with the data that you used?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Look, this was not a housing decision per se. It was a decision on the integrity of the system, based on the challenges we were seeing and the ecosystem that had been created. We can't deny the impact of the volume on affordability—notably, the cost of shelter in certain areas. Indeed, economists have said that this measure we took as a government currently to put on the cap is probably one of the most important affordability measures we have taken, so it is important, but it was not at the core of it. At the core of it was to make sure that Canadians could be proud of a system for international students.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

I'm still a little bit confused. Are you saying that you did take housing into consideration or you didn't? I'm not sure what you're saying. What are you telling me?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I can't help you with your confusion, but what I can say is that we knew that affordability challenges we were facing with respect to the large increase in volume in certain institutions were perhaps abusing a generous visa system that is regulated by the provinces.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Minister, the point of your coming here is to help clarify confusion that we might have here. With respect, I think that's the purpose of your being here.

You're telling me, then, that you do not consider housing impacts when you are looking at the program and designing a program and deciding how many people should be coming into the country.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

We are absolutely currently looking at that as part of our recognized institution models. What we did, and what we should take responsibility for, is that we trusted institutions and we trusted provinces. Perhaps we should have scrutinized that a little better.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

So there's no system within your department for tracking or being responsible for what the impacts are on housing. It's not something the department looks at.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

If you're asking me, Brad, whether or not I make sure that every single student has housing, the answer is no. There is absolutely responsibility that lies within the institutions that are making fifty grand off these people to get them housing and to make sure they have the proper learning experience. I don't understand what part of that is confusing.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

I've looked through the departmental results reports that you have, and I've looked for anything to do with housing in there. When you're monitoring the output and the results of your staff, I don't see anything in there about housing. There is a little bit about asylum seekers and refugees in terms of dollars, but beyond that it's clear that there's no consideration of housing when you are looking at your immigration plans and making decisions on capping, for example.

Is that true? Is that the way the department works? It does not consider housing at all.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

By that line of questioning, I'll assume that you haven't read the strategic review I issued in the fall.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Do you know what Canada's vacancy rate was for 2023?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

In which cities?

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

In Canada overall.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I don't know the general one. I know the ones in certain cities.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

It was 1.5%, according to CMHC, the lowest in recorded data ever.

You said earlier that you didn't know how many students in Canada were homeless, which is another concern we have. Did your department provide you with any research or any information documenting or predicting the housing situation of international students?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

We knew when we took this decision that there were pressures on particularly the most vulnerable, which includes students. We had obviously seen and witnessed the stories around packing five or 15 students to a house.

Again, we're not talking about people who come here destitute. I don't ensure that every immigrant in this country has a house. I do not furnish them a house. Sixty per cent of the people who come to this country under economic categories go and find themselves housing. I think Canadians would react if we provided those people with a house. People go on the market and use their capital to purchase one. That is the way the system works.

If someone comes in with capital, like a student, you would expect them to find housing; even more so, you would expect the institutions in question to go out and make sure they have housing, because those kids are vulnerable, so there is responsibility here, Brad. We are monitoring that now, and that's why we took the measures—

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Minister, clearly we do not expect the government to provide housing. That's clear. We agree on that.

However, it seems silly to me that the department—and you, as a minister—wouldn't even consider the impacts that the numbers you're producing for international students, for example, will have on students, because, as you said, they are not the problem—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

The time is up. I'll give the minister the floor.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

That is a good question. I don't think it is correct to insinuate that we don't.

We certainly looked, when we looked to stem the volume and spread out the international visas equitably by province, at the impact on the cost of shelter in certain jurisdictions, hoping that the provinces would actually take action on those institutions that have been the most egregious in leveraging the pocketbooks of international students.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you very much, Mr. Redekopp. We will now go to Madam Zahid.

You have five minutes. Please go ahead.