Evidence of meeting #7 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was universities.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Interim Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Again, with a motion from the committee, we'd be happy to undertake the work, undertake the analysis and furnish it to the committee.
Interim Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
I don't know that we don't have data. I know I'm not familiar with any particular datasets that we have in the office right now, because we haven't been asked to look at the issue. That said, off the top of my head, I can think of a couple of datasets that one might want to look at.
Interim Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
As a starting point, something I do on my evenings and weekends is look at the financial statements of universities and colleges across the province of Ontario as well as the websites of the Province of Ontario and the Ministry of Education and the policy framework they have with respect to intervening in colleges and universities and supporting them in eliminating their significant and potentially, dare I say it, unsustainable operating deficits. Those are very good information sources, but if you gave me more than five minutes, I could probably come up with a better term of reference for you.
Conservative
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London Centre, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
To Ms. Brunner, thank you very much.
Thanks to the PBO as well for appearing today.
Ms. Brunner, the question goes to one statement you made at the outset of today's testimony that we should, wherever possible—in fact, always—avoid looking at victims and villains in all of this in terms of the discourse or the narrative on international students. “Victims, villains and victors” is what you said, if I remember exactly.
I think I know what you mean by that, but can you explain that a bit further?
Postdoctoral Research Fellow, University of British Columbia, Centre for Migration Studies, As an Individual
There's been some missed nuance in terms of who's to blame for this situation, and that includes which institutions are to blame because it's really not an issue of private versus public institutions, colleges versus universities, since we do have private, for-profit universities in Canada that have not really been examined much.
Exploitative private colleges undoubtedly deserve strong critique, as do these marketized systems that produce them and allow them to flourish, but many private programs were delivered through these lucrative curriculum licensing agreements with public institutions, as Alex Usher discussed in his testimony, I believe.
It's also a really challenging situation where we have international students being framed in certain ways and being blamed for systemic issues for which they might make up a very small proportion. There's been a lot of divisive rhetoric discussing international students—from various parties, to be honest—as being responsible for the housing crisis, for example, as opposed to looking at more structural issues like underinvestment in public and non-market housing, financialization of homes as assets, weak tenant protections, etc. There was significant growth in 2022 and 2023, but international students still represent a small share of demand.
Going back to the point of this very important moment in terms of the public attitude towards immigration in Canada, it's important to maintain dignity and respect for anyone in our communities, contributing in the various ways that international students do.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London Centre, ON
Thank you very much.
I'm going to ask you to return to the example of Germany because you made a really interesting point about the fact that, in Germany, there's no differential tuition. Tuition is the same for German citizens and for international students.
I think so many of the challenges that we're now seeing play out, which are faced by colleges, particularly, and by universities, have to do with the fact that provincial funding has declined, as we heard in the previous testimony. I'm not sure if you were watching that, but at one time, it represented 80% of the funding that universities and colleges were relying on, and it is now around 20%.
Can you speak to the German model, for example, and how that can maybe serve as an example for Canada? If we don't address some very fundamental structural issues.... There are issues, of course, at the federal level that do need to be looked at and that will be looked at, but there are provincial responsibilities here that need to be adhered to. I think restoring funding on a level that is meaningful and serious will go a long way in addressing a lot of the challenges that we're seeing materialize.
Postdoctoral Research Fellow, University of British Columbia, Centre for Migration Studies, As an Individual
There's a lot of differentiation among the provinces and territories and, in general, public funding for higher education has declined across political parties since the 1970s. We know that operating grants have not kept pace with inflation, so certainly, the funding of higher education, the undervaluing of its role in society and Canadians' unwillingness, maybe, to pay for their own higher education system, instead relying on international student tuition to subsidize it, are certainly concerning.
I can provide you with some information about the German system in particular that would give more details. I'd be happy to provide that. There is a concern that, in Germany, there might be an increasing marketization similar to other countries because that draw is so powerful and because capitalism is so powerful. It's very difficult to think of a different model, but it is possible for us to really think about what our priorities are in society.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Michelle Rempel
You're right on time. That was amazing.
We'll go to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for two minutes.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Mr. Jacques, some parliamentarians tell us that Quebec and the provinces are to blame for financial disengagement from post-secondary institutions and for universities being underfunded.
I think it's because, in the late 1990s and early 2000s, the federal government decided to slash provincial transfers in order to balance its budget.
Would you agree with me on that?
Interim Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Unfortunately, we haven't yet evaluated that statement. If the committee put in that request, I'd certainly be in a better position to let you know my opinion.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Madam Chair, I would like the Parliamentary Budget Officer to provide us with an analysis of what happened in the late 1990s and early 2000s with respect to provincial transfer cuts. I would also like to know if that impacted the provinces, specifically with respect to education.
Interim Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
According to the numbers, federal transfers to the provinces were clearly reduced. However, I'm not an expert on how those cuts affected each province, especially Quebec at the time. Nevertheless, we can imagine that it must have presented some challenges for Quebec and the other provinces.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Ms. Brunner, would you quickly comment on the international reputation of the current education system for international students in Canada?
Postdoctoral Research Fellow, University of British Columbia, Centre for Migration Studies, As an Individual
I can only speak anecdotally about what I've heard from colleagues because it's not exactly my area of expertise. It certainly has been impacted because the applications to Canadian higher education institutions have decreased. I think there's essentially a sense that Canada doesn't want international students, if I can simplify it in that way.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Michelle Rempel
You're out of time. Thank you.
Now we go to Mr. Menegakis for five minutes.
Conservative
Costas Menegakis Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for appearing before us.
I have a few questions for the PBO first.
Has the federal government asked you to complete an analysis of the cost to Canada's health care system that the excessive numbers of international students have caused?
Interim Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
No, we have not received that request.
Conservative
Costas Menegakis Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Can you undertake to do that? Is it possible to provide that to the committee?
Interim Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Absolutely. With a request from the committee, we'd be happy to undertake the work.
Conservative
Costas Menegakis Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you. That would be helpful.
Has the federal government asked you to complete an analysis of how many hours international students work in Canada? Have you done an analysis of that?
Interim Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Likely somebody who actually works for the government would be better placed to respond to that question.
On our end, we're not part of the federal government per se, so I can't actually speak to what they have and haven't done.
