Evidence of meeting #11 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was women.
Liberal
Nancy Karetak-Lindell Liberal Nunavut, NU
I see quite a few copies here, and one of the staff was just distributing them, totally against the rules of the committee.
I ask that you make it universal in our judgment, Chair.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes
Could I have those turned in until we have them all brought forward in both official languages. Thank you. That was an oversight on the part of the chair.
Okay, we're going to move on to the opportunity to question our presenters. The first opportunity is for the Liberal side.
Who is going to take that on?
Liberal
Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB
Thank you. I will, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Chief Brazeau, for coming today.
I'm mulling over how to proceed. Let me first of all thank you for acknowledging the two aboriginal schools in the city of Winnipeg. I was intimately involved in establishing them. While they've had their challenges, they're certainly addressing some of the needs of some of the children in the city of Winnipeg.
As I listen to you, I'm not clear in my own mind what you're saying. You made a number of very strident political points in terms of what we should strive for. But what I'm really muddled about when I'm listening to you is that I don't understand what you're asking for in terms of governance and jurisdiction as it relates to the education of aboriginal children. I really would welcome some clarity.
National Chief, Congress of Aboriginal Peoples
Thank you for your question.
With respect to obligations in terms of the off-reserve population in this country, it has always been the struggle that the federal government has jurisdiction for status Indians living on-reserve only, yet when one moves off the reserve, they're deemed to become under provincial jurisdiction. But when one goes to the provincial governments for assistance, for example, one gets juggled back to the federal government.
So what happens with respect to the off-reserve population in this country--not only with respect to education but in a wide variety of issues--is that they fall between the cracks. Our position is that we know the federal government has funding for education. We know provincial governments have funding for education. So I think it's time that we be honest with ourselves in terms of who does what, how we can start a dialogue amongst ourselves, to ensure that we align what's already being spent. It's not a question of more money being put in the system, but how we best utilize those resources so that the people with real needs across this country have access to some of the dollars that are meant to address those issues.
Liberal
Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB
I need further information. I'm very familiar with the Winnipeg experience and I'm very familiar with the education of aboriginal children in the city of Winnipeg. It is, you're right, for the most part picked up by the provincial government, with some moneys coming in for children from first nations communities, where they don't have high schools, and the transfers of funds are made to the urban jurisdiction.
How would you propose aligning that? That's what I'm missing. It's one thing to say it needs to be aligned. We all know the BNA Act. We all know that education is a provincial responsibility. We all know that first nations education is a federal responsibility. It's one thing to say it, but what kind of proposals are you putting forward?
National Chief, Congress of Aboriginal Peoples
I guess the first step would be to begin a dialogue between federal, provincial, and aboriginal organizations with respect to how we utilize the funds to do the best with those funds. I'm very cognizant of this, that we should all respect the Constitution, but at the same time, we have to be real with ourselves in recognizing that the Constitution is also providing a lot of problems with respect to the aboriginal population in this country in terms of who is responsible for what.
So the first step is to sit down together and begin those discussions to ensure that the people who have needs actually get access to funding to try to address those issues. I think if we were to be able to sit down and start those discussions, then we could come up with a variety of solutions. Yet again, I don't think I'm here today to provide some of those solutions, without having sat down with provincial and federal representatives on this particular issue, knowing that there'll be differences of opinion and different areas in which people will want to go. But at least it would initiate a first step into how we go about addressing this problem.
Liberal
Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB
Have you had these discussions with other aboriginal organizations in the country?
National Chief, Congress of Aboriginal Peoples
I'm not sure. What exactly do you mean by “other”, the national organizations?
Liberal
Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB
Other national organizations: the AFN, NWAC, the Inuit organizations. Have you had any discussions of your desire to basically reform in a very dramatic way the whole funding process of education for aboriginal children in the country?
National Chief, Congress of Aboriginal Peoples
Absolutely. Leading up, for example, to the Kelowna meeting of last November, we had a series of meetings with the Native Women's Association of Canada, not just on education but on wide variety of issues, which led to a protocol agreement signed between the congress and NWAC a month and a half ago.
Liberal
Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB
And were the discussions specific?
What you are proposing is a very radical solution or a very radical approach to education of children. Have you begun a discussion with other potential partners to see if there's an interest? That's what I'm asking.
National Chief, Congress of Aboriginal Peoples
Absolutely. We've begun a series of discussions with different groups across the country. As a matter of fact, it's not just on education, but the message we're trying to convey and getting others on board into conveying that message....
Let's take post-secondary education, for example. We all know that the funding that's made available by the federal government is only available to status Indians who live on-reserve and, to a lesser extent, to status Indians who live off-reserve. But what about the non-status population in this country who cannot access some of those moneys because they don't hold a discretionary status card?
I'm fully aware, on that point, that I myself, as a status Indian who has lived both on- and off-reserve, was lucky enough to be able to access post-secondary education funding. But then again, there are also members of my own family who could not. Those are things we're trying to address, which is why we have undertaken a series of meetings to try to stress that message.
Conservative
Bloc
Yvon Lévesque Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
Gentlemen, welcome.
Does the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples represent aboriginal people on and off reserves? We know that those who live on-reserve are registered Indians. Among those who live off-reserve, a few are registered and others are not.
What structure do you see for people living off-reserve? How do you reach them? You recommend a national aboriginal centre. What do you mean by “national“? Would it be for all first nations across Canada?
National Chief, Congress of Aboriginal Peoples
Thank you for your questions.
First, I'd like to clarify something. You talked bout aboriginal people living on and off-reserve. It should be known that 51% of aboriginal people in Canada live off-reserve. We defend the rights and interests of aboriginal people living off-reserve, whether they be Métis or first nation people.
As for the national centre, it would be a centre for all of Canada, for all aboriginal people, including first nations, Métis and Inuit. It would be similar to the National First Nations Governance Centre, which was established a few years ago. All aboriginal people of Canada have access to the centre for expertise, information, etc.
Bloc
Yvon Lévesque Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
Do you recommend that the money from the provinces and the federal government be transferred to the national centre, which would then decide how much to give to aboriginal people living off-reserve or in an urban environment? If this were the case, how would you determine who gets the money, because you said there were registered and non-registered members?
National Chief, Congress of Aboriginal Peoples
I believe the definition of the different peoples in Canada already exists. However, the perception or understanding of people may be lacking. We try to educate people with respect to the terms and statistics I addressed earlier.
We believe the centre should be set up so as to have different representatives of the federal and provincial governments, as well as representatives of the five recognized national aboriginal organizations.
As for knowing who has access to what, who can get the money transferred to the centre, it would be up to a group or committee comprised of all the partners to determine these criteria and reach a consensus on this.
Bloc
Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Mr. Brazeau, how can the members of the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples be identified? Back home, in Rouyn-Noranda, there are off-reserve aboriginal people who have access to the Quebec provincial school system. How can I help them?
I apologize for painting such a nasty and mean picture. It's easy when a person lives on a reserve, because you know where they are and you can help the Inuit people or communities. But how can you help people living in Rouyn-Noranda if they have access to the Quebec school system?
National Chief, Congress of Aboriginal Peoples
Allow me to clarify the structure of the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples. We are the national organization, and we have provincial affiliated organizations. Most members across Canada are familiar with the existence of our provincial organizations.
I won't talk about the financial capacity of these organizations, because it's very minimal. These organizations are present in the provinces, and they provide similar programs and services in terms of education.
In Quebec, our recognized organization is the Alliance autochtone du Québec, which was established 35 years ago, which provides scholarships to aboriginal students living off-reserve, etc.
Second--I didn't want to address this issue, but it's very important--, there is financing. For every $8 spent by the federal government on-reserve, they only spend $1 off-reserve. How can we achieve a balance to enable everybody to have access to certain programs and services?
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for your presentation today.
I have to come back to the jurisdictional piece, because it would be extremely troubling. In my province of British Columbia, there are significant numbers of aboriginal students in provincial schools. In one of the schools in my riding, a primary school, almost 60% of the students are aboriginal. So we have a clear provincial jurisdiction over education for off-reserve children.
In the past, where the federal government has funnelled funds for particular initiatives, whether they're aboriginal or non-aboriginal, provinces have strongly resisted any accountability measures. We can go back to the agreements in 2001 and so on, and there were two separate child care agreements that, in my province, resulted in child care spaces being cut even though the federal funds were supposed to create child care spaces. I understand that some of the housing money that has recently come, in theory, for off-reserve aboriginal peoples is going to be used to build houses for non-aboriginal people.
So when you're talking jurisdictional issues, I know this is a problem that even constitutional experts can't come up with solutions to, but I think a simplistic solution that says we'll just get the federal, provincial, and aboriginal organizations to get together and have a conversation about this isn't going to wash. We need something more concrete. If you want the federal government to start mucking around in provincial government territory on education, I think you need to provide us with something more in that respect.
National Chief, Congress of Aboriginal Peoples
On that point, it might have been my lack of clarity on the issue, but what I was foreseeing was that if there were to be any federal transfers of money to the provinces for education, what we would like to see and need to see for the benefit of the off-reserve population in this country is to ensure accountability measures are structured into those transfers, one, so those moneys are indeed spent on education issues and not for any other reason, and two, to ensure that our provincial affiliates across the country are fully engaged in discussions as to how the money will be spent and how the programs will be implemented.
This has been a lifelong learning experience for us in that our provincial affiliates, who are the experts in service delivery, among a wide variety of other experts, are excluded. Our message has always been a question of inclusiveness.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
[Technical difficulty--Editor]...and have the provinces report on it. I think it's appalling that provinces get funds and they're not accountable to the federal government and the taxpayer. There are any number of examples of agreements where that doesn't happen.
I want to come back to the aboriginal educational plan--I'm waving these documents around a lot today. Have you been consulted? Have you been involved in this at all? Nobody's picked up a phone and said, “What do you think about aboriginal education in Canada?”