Evidence of meeting #18 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was students.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Roger Préfontaine
Keith Frame  Research Coordinator, Prince Albert Grand Council

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

I open this Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development for Thursday, September 28, 2006.

Members, you have the orders of the day. The first order of business we will be dealing with will be from 9 o'clock until 10 o'clock. We'll be listening to our witness and asking questions of him. Our witness is from Prince Albert Grand Council, Keith Frame, the research coordinator. Then we will be dealing with some committee business from 10 o'clock to 11 o'clock.

I would ask the witness, please...we'd like you to make a presentation for ten minutes, and then we'll be asking questions. We're looking forward to that.

Before I go any further, just so the committee is aware, I want to make mention that I have to leave at 11 o'clock sharp.

I should say, Mr. Lemay and Mr. Lévesque, that we have this package and it has not been translated. Are we able to receive this? It will be translated as soon as possible.

9:10 a.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Mr. Roger Préfontaine

It's being translated, and we will have it tomorrow.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

We'll have it tomorrow. So what is your pleasure, Mr. Lemay and Mr. Lévesque?

9:10 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Obviously, Mr. Chairman, we cannot agree with this and we must insist that those documents must be translated in French before they are tabled with the Committee.

If the witness refers to the documents, we just need to take notes in order to find them in the document when it will be translated.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

I was the only one who had a document.

For the witness' information, the policy of the committee is that we have any documents presented in both official languages to committee, and it's not acceptable if they're not. You can make your presentation on your brief, and we'll just make notes. Once it's translated, we'll be getting the package.

I realize the time constraints the witness was under, because we did give you very short notice, and we do appreciate that. We're not setting any fault here that you weren't prepared. It's just a matter of the time constraints that you were put under by the committee, and we appreciate your presence here this morning.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Gary Merasty Liberal Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

That's all I was going to say, that it's because of the time constraints. I'm sure they would have had a translation.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Thank you.

So we'll begin, Mr. Frame.

9:10 a.m.

Keith Frame Research Coordinator, Prince Albert Grand Council

First of all, good morning, and thank you for the invitation. It's nice to be here. It's nice to talk about a subject that's so close to my work and to some of my passion in my work.

On behalf of Grand Chief Michel, Vice-Chiefs Henderson and Deranger, and the Prince Albert Grand Council, I'd like to say we appreciate being invited to the table on such a topic.

I'd like to start by saying I wish I had the documents in French and English, but it was a short time. I was dealing with schools and their reading programs, and this came up, and I tried to get a jump on it as fast as I could. I wish I could have had it here, but time was tight.

I'm not sure what part of the document is going to be looked at, so maybe just out of courtesy we could stick with the charts, if that would be fine.

I'd like to start by saying that the work you see in front of you is part of a larger project. Three to four years ago at the Prince Albert Grand Council we started taking a look at what we were doing in our schools and making solid decisions and policies and setting direction. To do that, it was important for us to gather data that was reliable from a number of sources: Canada-wide, province-wide, northern Saskatchewan-wide, and then right from our communities themselves.

From that point we looked at K to 12 education, because that's where we were primarily focused at the time and that's where a lot of exciting things are taking place.

As we did that project and we looked at the indicators--the first document--we realized it's very difficult to talk about K to 12 education without that bleeding into post-secondary and into the labour market, because they're all tied together so tightly. When we did this project...we now have three documents. What I'd like to do is go through some of the charts.

When I was given a call the other day, they asked if I could talk about post-secondary education and about some of the factors that are taking place, particularly in our world, in the grand council. What I'd like to do, if it's possible, is just jump to those, because I know I have a short time, and then if you have questions, I'll be more than happy.

So if you would, please, on page 3...oh, we don't have the document.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

We don't have the document.

9:10 a.m.

Research Coordinator, Prince Albert Grand Council

Keith Frame

Okay, I'll talk through my charts. When we started taking a look at education, first of all, we had to have reliable information about population in those demographics. We gathered population demographics all the way back from 1911 to 2001. In that period of time we found that the Canadian general population grew by 450% and the aboriginal population grew by 930%. From 1991 to 2002 the aboriginal population in Canada grew by 230%. So now we're looking at a significantly large population growth.

More particularly in Saskatchewan, in the last number of years we've seen what's called a boom, bust, and echo. The baby boomers came through and there was a peak in population. It was larger in Canada and slightly smaller in Saskatchewan. That trend reversed about ten to fifteen years later. What we have now is the youth in Saskatchewan between one and fourteen...that peak in population is far surpassing the general Canadian population. Statistics Canada also estimates that in the next eight to ten years there's going to be another boom, and it's going to be particularly in the aboriginal first nations population in northern Saskatchewan communities and in other areas where there are those populations.

I think that was important for us because we had to start taking a look at schools, the capacities, what's needed. When I talk to my chiefs and councils I say, we have students who are fourteen and fifteen years old, and we'll blink our eyes and they're going to be eighteen and nineteen and looking for post-secondary education.

Another interesting demographic in northern Saskatchewan is the changing population. A lot of the population right now between 44 to 65-plus years are the folks who are finishing their careers, deciding what they're going to do when retiring, and some of them are leaving their careers. That's the non-reserve northern population. The Grand Council population is the opposite. On one side, you have the general population that is aging and leaving careers; they've finished their schooling. On the other, we have this large population of aboriginal first nations youth, and there's going to be a need to switch spots in terms of education, in terms of careers. It's a very predominant demographic.

In the Prince Albert Grand Council, probably a little over 30,000 individuals presently make up the membership. From 1994 to 2003, that membership grew by 33%. We're talking about a very large growth in population. Today it's a very young population.

From that point, I'm looking at demographics and population, at how they relate to Canada and to the individuals in the Grand Council. We took a look at educational attainment itself, and again we looked from Canada to Saskatchewan, but I thought I would focus on Saskatchewan while I'm here. What we have today is that 71% of aboriginal individuals have less than a secondary school education, less than a high school education. So we're talking about a large part of that population.

In terms of post-secondary graduates, diplomas, or degrees, that represents 8% of the aboriginal population; 19% have some...which means they're involved in some type of post-secondary program. So we see a large number of individuals with less than a high school education. There is some representation in technical schools, some representation in universities, but those numbers are quite small. Within our own high schools, as we started to focus down, because high school leads into post-secondary education, we found that in 1998-99 we had approximately 42 individuals who graduated from our schools. We have 28 schools in the grand council. You'll be able to see some of that information in the document when it's available. By 2003-04 that number of graduates rose to 184, which indicates there are significant increases taking place.

But it's important to understand that those numbers--although they are positive and show that good things are happening and that students are trying to stay in school to get their grade 12 education--represent a small amount. That year that 184 graduated represented only 19% of the high school young adults--they don't like to be called children.

Our grade 12 classes are small, but once we got them to grade 12, I believe there was a 92% chance of them going on. In 1998, when there were 42 graduates, 34% of the grade 12 class went on. That 34% increased to 92% a number of years later. Once our students get there, they do go on.

As an aside, what is very interesting is that one of the biggest demographics of graduates right now is for females over 21 who have kids. I think it's exciting stuff. You can tell I could talk about this for hours.

We've now started to focus on post-secondary and look at the numbers and programs they were going into. What we found is that from 1977 to 2002-03, there were significant increases in the number of students who received INAC funding. What was also interesting was that those who received funding, I believe it was in 1996-97, actually started to drop off. It decreased by 8%, which is 2,108 individuals. So there were large increases as post-secondary opened up and students started to be involved. From 1977 to 1995, I believe, there was an increase of 415% in post-secondary students receiving INAC funding.

What I find interesting is that we're talking sometimes about small percentages. There is one chart that talks about a decline in student population of I believe 1% or 2%, but that 1% or 2% represents 87 students who struggled with a lot of barriers in the community. They graduated, went up to the band office, and they asked to go to school. They said no. As a teacher and as someone who still works in schools, small percentages represent people. To me, and I know for you as well, it's very disheartening at times.

Another chart in the document takes a look between academic years at the post-secondary level. How did the enrolments increase? How many more went to school or didn't go to school? At its highest point, in 1985, the number of students who went to post-secondary education and received INAC funding increased by 29.6%. The largest decline was minus 4.5% in 2001-02. What's more interesting is that from 1977 to 1995--with the exception of one year where there was what I call a little bleeper, where there was a negative number--there has always been a positive number of enrolments, although they've started to decline.

What we have now at the grand council is a chart that shows that for the last five to six years those numbers have actually started to decline. This means, for example, in some communities, when they get their budget for post-secondary education, it hasn't increased, but the desire to go to post-secondary has. The money is limited, and the opportunity has become limited for our youth.

Within the grand council we also took a look at the graduates--those who have gone on and finished their post-secondary degrees. We also took a look at enrolments. What we found was that in a very short period of time, from 1998 to 2002, there was an increase of 34.5% in enrolment in post-secondary education. Yet within that time, from 2000 to 2002, that same enrolment percentage dropped by 7.2% or 65 students.

Our graduates--they're in the programs--are graduating at a very slow rate, and there are a number of issues that have some influence on that.

When we took a look at post-secondary students and we did surveys with them, we found that one of the critical factors in their world was the price index and how that relates to the cost of living. Generally, the costs of living are 29% higher now than they were in 1990. Also, as we talked about the costs of living, we talked about tuition. What we found was that in Canada, western Canada, and then again particularly in Saskatchewan, tuitions have increased on average by 8.1% a year, while inflation has increased by 1.9%. So the pot of money, the budget that's accessible to our students, has remained the same for a fair number of years. And within that post-secondary support you do get, things cost a lot more today than they did a number of years ago. That's what's also a factor for our students.

There's an interesting piece of information that came from the surveys we did with our post-secondary students. As I said before, one of the largest demographics is females with kids coming back and finishing their grade 12. When we surveyed the post-secondary students, I thought I was going to see concerns mostly around money, books, and tuition. But one of the biggest factors was finding a house--finding a place where they could live, finding a place that was comfortable, clean, safe for their kids, a place with recreation for their kids, a nice school--which I didn't expect. That's some of the information I find as I do this type of research. Sometimes you come across things you never expected would turn up.

But I digress.

As we looked at post-secondary education, we also asked how this relates to the labour market. Hopefully, when you finish your education you have a chance to use it and have a career. So we started to take a look at our communities, and that's the latest document--the labour market--which we did just this summer. What we found is that in our communities there are a fair number of folks who are unemployed. There's a range from location to location. The employment rate on average in our communities is 28%. At the time we did this survey it went as low as 21% and as high as 42%. Most communities, at a 42% employment rate...even that's quite low, I think.

What we found more interesting was some of the work that was shared with us by the Sask Trends Monitor. In our on-reserve communities, as I mentioned before, employment can range from 19% to 21%, depending on whether people commute on and off the reserve to their job site. But what was more alarming for us is that approximately 58% are not in the labour force. They're not working; they're not employed. I'd feel comfortable saying that those are the folks who probably don't have a grade 12. They're the ones who...remember, I said a few minutes ago, they're 18; they blink their eyes and they're 25 now.

I was talking with my director and our coordinators of education. I oversee a principals' group where we bring our 28 principals into our community for a meeting four times a year. During our last meeting there was a conversation that started to take place around the coffee pot. What I found interesting was that the principals were talking about the large number of youth who are 15, 16, 17 years old who are starting to not go to school. There is no employment, and what's the plan? They were talking not necessarily from a focus, as you folks might be today, but about how do we get them back to school, what courses do they have, what courses do they need, and if they're not bound for university, how do we get them into the trades, so that they don't have seasonal work but can have a career?

I've told people a number of times that I wished I had a secret camera because it was such a casual conversation that developed. I found the things they talked about very interesting, especially about doing the work that we have...and in thinking about that young demographic.

The last point I'd like to make is that when we looked at on-reserve in the north, the first nations reserve and the grand council, we took a look at those individuals who had a post-secondary education. We found that among non-reserve in northern Saskatchewan, approximately 40% have post-secondary education, and on the grand council on reserve, it's less than 25%. Again, once the document arrives, there will be more information.

I included the introductions to our post-secondary indicators and to our labour market report from our grand chief. I think those words speak very close to the situation and close to the grand council. What I also did was include the conclusion from our post-secondary report, because it makes a few recommendations at the end. It talks about the situation as it is today, and it also talks about what might be some of the considerations in the future.

In closing, thank you again for the invite. I enjoyed being here. I always enjoy talking about this information. I hope you enjoy the report once it does arrive, and I'll leave it at that.

Thank you.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Thank you.

We'll be moving on to questions now, so we'll have you on the hot seat.

I'll turn it over first to Mr. Merasty.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Gary Merasty Liberal Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

Unfortunately, the handout couldn't come out, so I'm just going to try to clarify a couple of pieces of information to pinpoint some of these issues.

The first point you made was that there's a huge population growth--from my understanding, probably Canada's most significant demographic shift in 50 years. Baby boomers are retiring and vacating the labour force, and one of the source populations entering the labour force potentially is aboriginal people. You say this is happening in Saskatchewan, obviously.

Graduation rates out of grade 12 are increasing. You said 92% of the students in grade 12 in 2004 graduated, versus 34% of the students in grade 12 graduating in 1998. That's quite amazing. The flip side to that is that's only about 20% of the total high school population. I think we have to clarify that as well. What percentage of that 80% still live on the reserve? I imagine a large number of them are actually off reserve, and we can't track the other 80%--right?

Another point I think you made on post-secondary enrolment was that enrolment initially increased as funding was made available. As the population increased, the funding flatlined, so we're now starting to see a drop. You can only maintain so long before you start to see a drop in enrolment, and in large part that seems to be due to funding. That's another point perhaps you could clarify.

Another point I'm hearing is that we don't fund adults trying to come back to high school, and we're having to tell them no at the band office or elsewhere...and considering that the women with children, who are more than likely adults, or over the age of 21 in some cases, are the ones with the highest rates of success.

Those are some of the main points I heard in your presentation, as well as some additional information on post-secondary graduation rates, comparing PAGC to non-reserve northern Saskatchewan. I'd like to see those numbers as we go.

I want to put a context behind one statement you made. You said the employment rate in northern Saskatchewan is 28%. The reason you don't use “unemployment” is because in order to be unemployed you actually have to register somewhere, right? What is the employment rate in northern Saskatchewan compared to on-reserve numbers?

I'll leave it at that, those three questions. First, where do you think the other 80% of those high school students are? I'd hate to have people understand that they're all on reserve, and dropouts on reserve, because they're probably off reserve and the number is not as skewed as it looks. Second, concerning the comment on the dropping enrolments into post-secondary, is that related to funding? And third, on the employment rates, define employment versus unemployment in northern Saskatchewan.

9:35 a.m.

Research Coordinator, Prince Albert Grand Council

Keith Frame

With respect to the 19% or 20% who graduated, we found that in the same year we had approximately 370 students enrolled in our first nations high schools. Those are also students enrolled in public schools--in Prince Albert, Saskatoon. When I talk about that large number of students, I want you to understand that not all grade 12 grand council students are on reserve, because some aren't. The other 80% are children in grade 10 or 11, children who didn't finish grade 12, or others who are returning. The other thing we find with our students is that instead of taking three years to complete to grade 12, some students take four, five, or six. For those coming back, especially, it takes longer. There is this high population, but not necessarily from grand council schools.

We looked at the drop in enrolment in post-secondary education. In the grand council, one of the first questions we considered was whether there was funding for going to school. Is it available to you? Are you on a waiting list? How long have you been on the list? We look at grad students who want to go on but don't get accepted at their community level. There are a number of factors that play into someone's success in post-secondary school, such as housing or bridging programs. When you talk about the numbers dropping, it would be easy to say it's because of just one thing. It would be so easy to blame, say, funding. Although it plays a major part, there are other factors as well. It's very difficult, and I would hate to say just one thing.

When you talked about employment-unemployment, you said you had to have employment to have unemployment. As for the data gathered in the grand council, the purpose of that chart was to focus on those not in the labour force. The number of unemployed is low because the number of employed is low. When there's seasonal work, like fishing, firefighting, or line-cutting, they grab those jobs as fast as they can because they do not come along very often. They work for three or four months and then they're unemployed. Even at that, the employment-unemployment numbers are low. We want to focus on those who aren't in the labour force and relate that to education.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Mr. Lemay.

9:35 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Thank you, Mr. Frame.

I shall make a first comment. It is wonderful to see that you kept statistics from 1911 to 2001. Did I understand correctly? You have numbers on the demographics of your population for that whole period?

9:35 a.m.

Research Coordinator, Prince Albert Grand Council

9:35 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Well done!

9:35 a.m.

Research Coordinator, Prince Albert Grand Council

Keith Frame

On population growth.

9:35 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

This Committee is concerned with post-secondary education. This is the focus of this Committee at this time. I understand that there are several levels to reach and that very often it becomes difficult to go off to post-secondary education. Something worries me.

Am I to understand that in your community, a male or female who wants a post-secondary education must be accepted or get the support of his or her community to be able to do so?

9:40 a.m.

Research Coordinator, Prince Albert Grand Council

9:40 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Why?

9:40 a.m.

Research Coordinator, Prince Albert Grand Council

Keith Frame

Because at the community level, after young adults get their grade 12 they have a number of sources. If you look at the socio-economic conditions in some of our communities, mom and dad don't have a lot of money where they can say, here, I'll help you with your tuition, your books, or a place to live.

The sources for finding the funding for that young individual to go to school are very limited, and when they do go to the band office, the post-secondary fifteen new students in one year, but we also have to continue paying for the students who are already in programs.

This is off the top of my head, so the number is probably wrong, but I believe last year in one community--because I asked the post-secondary coordinators to please send me some information right from the community itself--there were 67 students who applied and who couldn't get in.

If, for example, they were able to give their fifteen...there are still students who didn't get in, but please remember that was last year. We might have twenty from the year before and ten from the year before that. What happens is you get on the waiting list and as your time comes up you might get in, but some of the waiting lists are three, four, five, six years old.

9:40 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

I understand perfectly what you are telling me, Mr. Frame. However, what I do not understand, is why, in the white population, there is no such restriction for someone wanting a secondary education at the college or university level. We shall have to answer to that comment

Isn't it a problem? If I am on a waiting list and I want to study medicine, for instance, my chances to get funding are better than if I want to study graphic arts. Is the program chosen one of the criteria used to fund the students on the waiting list?

9:40 a.m.

Research Coordinator, Prince Albert Grand Council

Keith Frame

From my understanding, it's usually difficult for those folks who do want to go off to post-secondary education, to go into medicine or into dentistry, as you mentioned, because you have to make a long-term financial commitment from the community side, from the band office side.

A lot of our students are hoping to get into four-year programs, hoping to get into two-year programs. You have to set priorities. As a person who works in that band office...you have a community and you have to set priorities as to who gets to go and who doesn't get to go, and maybe sometimes those things factor into it. Can you afford to send someone to school for seven years and two kids for no years, or could you send two for four years and leave the one behind? Those are the decisions that take place.

When you mentioned the general population and restrictions, there are some at times. I really believe that young individuals in certain parts of the country where money is tight run into the same situation at times, where they say, “Do you know what? I can't go to school. Mom and dad don't have the money. I can't get into it.”

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Mr. Lemay, I'm going to move on.