Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 19th, 2006

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

We still have a couple of minutes.

Mr. Blaney.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome to the representatives of the Department of Indian Affairs. I think your presentation described the programs you offer very well. As was mentioned earlier, the people in Nunavut we visited gave us a clear example of what a success story means.

The challenge of education is important for young people. Next week, several members of the committee will be going to Mashteuiatsh for the First Nations' Socio-economic Forum. Education will be one of the four themes discussed. As you briefly mentioned, Ms. Cram, defining the problems properly is one of the challenges that arise. I think there are many reports indeed, but here we're talking about statistics that enable us to assess the needs with a view to the budget.

You talked about the challenges in collecting data, for example, the difficulty of determining the number of graduates within communities or translating the existing needs in financial terms.

Can you tell us more about those challenges?

[Christine Cram]

The data we need right now are not those necessary to forecast needs. Right now, we have information on spending, but we don't have any on the number of students whose request regarding post-secondary education could not be accepted by the committee. As I mentioned, there is a lack of data in this regard. We were not in a position to make budget forecasts up until now.

[Richard Budgell]

Just to add to what my colleague is saying, Indian Affairs does not collect information on the number of eligible students who are otherwise denied funding. If that were to be collected, that would mean there would be another requirement from Indian Affairs to first nations to collect that information and aggregate it and submit it. We're conscious, among other things, about the burden--and one of your colleagues has referred to this--that is put on first nations in terms of our needing this piece of information or that piece of information. It has to be seriously considered whether this is information we feel we need regionally, nationally, on a first nations level, and it would come through an agreement with first nations, ultimately, that we all believe this should be collected. In a number of cases, we find that we do not always have the right information.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

We're out of time here.

We move on to Monsieur Lévesque.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Since I have very little time, I will put all my questions to you in random order. You can answer them afterwards.

In the last paragraph of page 3 of your speaking notes, you state this:

Despite the large increase over several decades in the number of post-secondary students supported, post-secondary attainment rates for First Nations and Inuit do not yet match those of other Canadians.

In this regard, I'd like to know whether the customs and languages of the students are used where post-secondary education is provided.

In the second complete paragraph on page 4, you state:

His main finding is that there is a pressing need to address the very low Aboriginal high school graduation rates in order to increase participation rates among First Nations—

Certain persons who have appeared before this committee talked about the subject. For years now, the situation has been denounced. Don't you think that the attendance rate and the success rate of young people in elementary and high schools would be better if they had a more conventional family life?

I'm a little bit angry to see that what's been generally recommended here is an extension in the duration of the university and college preparatory program. These people are just as intelligent as we are. If we give them an opportunity to study under normal conditions, we will not need to extend the duration of their studies.

What leaves me truly perplexed is to hear that you have no control over the money that you distribute to communities to help students at the post-secondary level. Could I go into one of these communities and buy a truck with the money earmarked for post-secondary education? There's really no connection between the two.

As my colleague already asked you, what are you waiting for to implement the recommendations contained in the PricewaterhouseCoopers' report? You would then have at least partial control over spending, community needs and programs.

[Christine Cram]

Thank you. You have asked several questions; I will try to answer them.

First of all, I would like to talk about success stories. According to Mr. Mendelson's studies, Aboriginals who undertake post-secondary studies succeed just as well as non-Aboriginals. The difference in rate is because of the fact that in terms of percentage, there are fewer Aboriginals who attend post-secondary institutions. It is a lot less than non-Aboriginals. However, once they do attend these institutions, they have the same success rate.

We would like to see pre-university years because that some schools on the reserves are not as strong as others. That is why the ministries are working to increase the level of teaching from grades 4 to 12. Sometimes, youth who finish grade 12 are not well enough equipped to be admitted to post-secondary institutions. This is especially true in math and sciences. One of the reasons for this is that it is difficult to hire teachers in communities that are located far from major urban centres. The same is true in rural communities across the country; it is difficult to hire high-level teachers in all schools.

Let us talk about the importance of language and culture. We recognize this is very important. The Indian Study Support Program does exist. This gives an opportunity to improve the program on languages and culture, because we know that it is important for success.

There are not sufficient control measures, but we have not seen any cases of ineligible people receiving money. That problem does not exist. The problem is that if the community responds to all existing needs, it cannot use the surplus for other purposes. It will not give the funds to someone who is ineligible.

I do not know if I have answered all your questions.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Mr. Chairman, do I still have some time? I would like to remind the lady that we have met some people here. They were lucky, because they had the funds that enabled them to pursue their education. Others had also attained this level, but there were no funds available to send them to a post-secondary institution. Most of the witnesses stated that. There is a lack of funds to allow everyone to pursue post-secondary education. The witness did not answer the following question: when do you think the committee will become operational?

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

I'm not going to let you answer that question, because we have to move on to the government side.

Mr. Bruinooge.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

Thank you.

Following up on Monsieur Lévesque's point, even though I've been in government for about eight months now, it's still sometimes challenging to understand all of the models that are employed to be able to deliver funding. Hopefully one of these days soon I'll be able to understand it as well as some of my colleagues around the table and, I'm sure, all of you people.

Perhaps you could explain to me, in relation to what Mr. Lévesque was talking about, how funds are allocated to most of our Inuit citizens via the model that's been devolved to that new territory. Is post-secondary funding a part of that devolution in terms of it now being the responsibility of the new territory?

[Richard Budgell]

Of course the relationship between the federal government and first nations is different from the relationship between the federal government and Inuit. We have an Indian Act, which dictates a great deal of the relationship with first nations. For Inuit, it depends very much on the jurisdiction they live in. But in the territories there's an intergovernmental agreement, the territorial funding formula, that provides funding from the federal government for the expenditures of territorial governments. That ultimately helps to finance the post-secondary funding that the Government of Nunavut or the Government of the Northwest Territories administers. For Inuit south of 60, the post-secondary funding is administered through their land claims organizations. For instance, where I'm from in Labrador, the funding is administered by the now-called Nunatsiavut Government, the Labrador Inuit land claims institution. That funding comes from Indian and Northern Affairs directly and is incorporated into the funding agreement connected to the land claims agreement. It is a much more direct system than that with Nunavut and the Northwest Territories.

But south of 60 and in fact for Nunavut and Northwest Territories Inuit who are no longer permanent residents of the Northwest Territories and Nunavut, those people are in fact eligible for Indian Affairs-financed post-secondary assistance. And there's a group of administering organizations. There is an administering organization in every region south of 60 that is responsible to provide funding to Inuit who are no longer resident in the territories. So it's complicated.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

With respect to the direct funding that you spoke of, is that administered directly by the department?

[Richard Budgell]

No, it's done by administering organizations.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

Is it incumbent upon them to provide any accounting for how they spend those funds, such as in terms of the number of students they're funding?

[Richard Budgell]

Yes, it is, the same as with any other administering organization. It's the same as with a first nations administering organization, for instance.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

The chair would like to ask a question.

To me, the question that is going around here is this. If the aboriginal leadership set post-secondary education as a priority, is there enough funding to meet the need?

[Christine Cram]

I guess my answer is that we would suspect the $305 million we currently have for post-secondary education is probably insufficient. What we don't know is how much would be.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Then this would be the next question. What is the department going to do to determine that?

[Christine Cram]

That's why we need to work on a management framework, because we need to be able to have the information necessary to be able to do some estimating of what's needed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

What are the timelines for that to be done?

[Richard Budgell]

We have committed to completing our management framework--and this is for all areas of education, not just post-secondary--by June 2007. That then leads into the renewal of the program authorities, which has to happen by March 31, 2008.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Thank you very much. I've run out of time.

Madam Crowder.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I wonder if you could have more clarity of language, because on page 3 of your report, you talk about 5% of aboriginal individuals 15 years of age or older, and later on you talk about aboriginal people attained college yet. In most of your document, you talk about first nations and Inuit.

My understanding is that the numbers are different for first nations and Inuit than they are for aboriginals. So I think it actually obscures the problem for first nations and Inuit peoples, both accessing and completing education. I don't think you can provide that data today. This has come up before from department officials, where you talk throughout your documents about first nations, and then you flip into aboriginal because the numbers look slightly better. That's just a comment.

You don't have the data to talk about students who are turned down, but I suspect you also don't have the data on students who don't even apply, because of what we call sticker shock. I used to work in a university college system, and many students simply don't apply because the costs are so prohibitive for them. So it's not that they're turned down, they just don't apply. I know that the Assembly of First Nations has asked for resources to help them work with the data, and they've also asked for complete data from the department, which they don't currently get. That's more of a comment.

There have been a number of reports recommending that the department move in the direction of supporting first nations educational institutions—stand-alone institutions. I wonder if you could comment on what the department's philosophy is and what they're doing to support it.

Secondly, what is the department doing specifically around supporting and promoting trades training for first nations and Inuit—not just aboriginal?

So please comment on those two.

[Richard Budgell]

In terms of supporting first nations post-secondary institutions specifically, the ISSP program now supports about 55 institutions.