Evidence of meeting #21 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was students.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Roberta Jamieson  President and Chief Executive Officer, National Aboriginal Achievement Foundation
Paulette Tremblay  Director, Post-Secondary Education, National Aboriginal Achievement Foundation
Michael Mendelson  Policy Analyst, Caledon Institute of Social Policy

10 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, National Aboriginal Achievement Foundation

Roberta Jamieson

I think I'll leave the committee and others to evaluate the INAC system. Internally, I can only say that many of the students who come to us come despite being provided with some assistance through the department.

For example, the department allocates funds to first nations that provide post-secondary assistance to students. We ask our students to attempt to access that before they come to us. We have many who report to us and demonstrate that either they have accessed inadequate funds or there has been no funding left.

I'm reaching back to my days as chief, which is not that long ago. But I can tell you that in my own community at Six Nations, where I was chief until 2004, I had a full 400 students who were accepted for post-secondary, in my final year as chief, who we could not fund.

I'm going to ask Dr. Tremblay to add some things to this as well. I don't think it's an overstatement to say the funds aren't there.

Secondly, the importance of tracking is critical and vital. We have to demonstrate to our sponsors that we're keenly aware of it. You're absolutely right.

But whether it's public sector or private sector, we know we're accountable for every dollar, because it's our kids and it's their future. If we don't manage the money wisely, we deprive them. I carry that burden very seriously and very responsibly, and the foundation does so throughout.

There's no question that the kind of tracking we're talking about should be readily available right across the country.

I'm happy to talk to the department about how they might do a better job, or indeed manage additional funds, and how to do the job we're doing times 10 or times 100.

10 a.m.

Conservative

Rod Bruinooge Conservative Winnipeg South, MB

You make light of the fact that perhaps the funding needs to be managed through another medium. But I think there is validity to that point in the sense that we're currently shipping off $300 million to regions and they are then distributing it to bands and council.

In theory, they can spend the money as part of their overall budget in terms of whatever project is necessary. Of course, I think many are putting that money into the hands of students, but the bottom line is there is no tracking.

I think some out-of-the-box thinking on this isn't necessarily a bad idea.

10:05 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, National Aboriginal Achievement Foundation

Roberta Jamieson

There are also some limitations to the funding coming from the department that you should be aware of.

I'm going to ask Dr. Tremblay to speak to this, if I may.

10:05 a.m.

Director, Post-Secondary Education, National Aboriginal Achievement Foundation

Paulette Tremblay

The problem is not simple. It's very complex when you're talking about first nations, Inuit, and Metis.

Some of the limitations at the community level would be that for post-secondary education programs they get to interpret how to apply those dollars at that level. Sometimes the majority of the dollars go to undergrad students who are in first, second, third, and fourth year, and little to no funds go to graduate support for people in masters or doctoral programs. We know there are waiting lists across the country to access post-secondary education funding.

There is very little funding through the program for trades or programs where they have to do upgrading because their education isn't perhaps at the required level. They can't compete in a medical doctoral program because their marks in science, biology, or math aren't high enough, and they are automatically screened out. It's a multiple-level problem.

I can tell you that when we track, we know.

For first nations, over a six-year period from 1999-2006, we had 1,723 applications. We awarded that to first nations that receive post-secondary education funding. Our agreement with INAC requires these students to first apply to the bands, before we can allocate the money, and we require a letter. It's additional funds that they need from us.

Remember, this is the cream of the crop. We're getting small numbers for many reasons.

For Metis, where access is—

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

I'm going to have to cut you off.

10:05 a.m.

Director, Post-Secondary Education, National Aboriginal Achievement Foundation

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

I'm sorry, but we're just out of time.

I'm just going to allow one question. Mr. Russell said he has one short or concise question. I'm just going to allow him that and then we're going to—

10:05 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Do you believe that?

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

I want to thank you very much for the presentation.

Ms. Jamieson, it's good to see you again in this particular venue.

I just have a couple of questions.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

One.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

They'll be very quick.

What portion of your funding goes to first-year students? Because I think that's critical in terms of getting people in and seeing them go through. And what portion of your funding has been raised by non-federal government sources so far?

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Wow!

A concise answer, please.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

He comes with a speech.

10:05 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, National Aboriginal Achievement Foundation

Roberta Jamieson

On the first question, I'll undertake to provide the answer to it.

As for the second question, of the $2.8 million we awarded last year, aside from money from the trusts, over $500,000 million came from the private sector. I can give a more fulsome breakdown if you wish, but that's the fast answer. We need more; it's growing as we have more corporate people coming onboard.

Chair, I would be remiss if I did not formally table this document with the committee today. I do have it available in both languages. We are making it available through the chair to the committee.

One of the things the foundation does, as you know, is to provide achievement awards to outstanding people in a variety of careers. This last year, we, along with the Kenny Family Foundation and the University of British Columbia--that is, private sector donors--fully financed the holding of a think tank that brought together our education laureates from across Canada to talk about what they thought were the priority directions for education in Canada for first nations, Métis, and Inuit youth. They gathered together and thought long and hard, without reinventing past reports. They were future-oriented and brought a sense of urgency to the need to address education issues, and they asked me if I would bring this document to the committee and table it with the committee. I do so today and suggest that you may wish to consider at some point calling them to appear as well.

We had the brain trust of Canada in aboriginal education, and representation from the national aboriginal organizations. They were all invited, and many of them came. So you have, virtually hot off the press, as I just got this last night, their thinking, their priorities, and their sense of urgency and thoughts on the future of education and what the committee might wish to take into account in preparing its report.

Thank you very much.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Thank you for your presentations, Mrs. Jamieson and Mrs. Tremblay.

I just want to encourage the committee to.... I attended one of the National Aboriginal Achievement Foundation awards functions in Edmonton, the last time I was there, and it is really worth while; it's quite encouraging to see the accomplishments of aboriginal people in Canada.

So thank you for your presentation.

I'm going to break for two minutes, and then we'll have Mr. Mendelson presenting.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

We reconvene to allow Mr. Mendelson an opportunity to speak.

We have with us Michael Mendelson, policy analyst from the Caledon Institute of Social Policy.

October 24th, 2006 / 10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON

Mr. Chair, could I just make a statement?

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Certainly.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON

I think this last session has given us ample evidence that we need to give our witnesses more time. We didn't get any chance to ask questions on this side. I would suggest, with respect, that from here on in we try to create a little more time for our witnesses to give them the chance to give their concerns and to give us a chance to enter into dialogue.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

I appreciate that, but the chair was also very lenient with the presentation. The presentation went on for 20 minutes, but was supposed to be 10 minutes. So that ate up some of your opportunity for questions, but I felt that the presentation was more important than your questions.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON

I don't argue with that at all.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

But I agree and will take this into consideration when we do further scheduling.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Rod Bruinooge Conservative Winnipeg South, MB

Mr. Chair, could we perhaps even schedule another meeting for some more analysis of some of the things that have been brought to our attention--for instance, this document that's just been brought to our attention? As suggested, could we maybe bring in some of these witnesses to another meeting?

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

I would ask that any members who have any suggestions such as this refer them to the clerk, and he'll make me aware of them and I will ask for your guidance.

Thank you for your patience, Mr. Mendelson, and welcome to our committee.

10:15 a.m.

Michael Mendelson Policy Analyst, Caledon Institute of Social Policy

It's my pleasure to be here.

I know time is short, so I'm going to try to be as quick as possible, and have some opportunity for dialogue.

I've passed out a little slide presentation, which is based on a longer report. The longer report, which I highly recommend to you, as the author, is available free on the Caledon Institute website.

Let me take you through some of the highlights of the slide show that I've handed out, and then we'll have a discussion.

In the slide show I begin with a discussion of some of the demographics. The slide show itself I think is available in both languages. I won't spend a lot of time on demographics, because presumably you're familiar with these. I'm discussing in my presentation data empirical evidence from the censuses, the censuses in 2001 and 1996 in particular. My data are about what is called the aboriginal identity population; that is, those persons who identify themselves as aboriginal when asked in the census or who are members of a band or who are first nations members. That's approximately a million people in Canada.

The aboriginal identity population as a percentage of population is on the second slide. I think it's important to note, in terms of understanding where the social and economic impacts of the success or the lack of success of the aboriginal population will be in Canada, to understand where the population concentrations are. It is very much in Manitoba and Saskatchewan. Unfortunately, as you'll see in my presentation, much of the worst results are also in Manitoba and Saskatchewan. So we have both the highest proportion in population and the highest concentration of challenge.

The next few slides address some important demographic data and some of the mythology that we hear. The slide on page 5 shows the future aboriginal workforce among the provinces that is between the ages of 15 and 65. We sometimes hear that the aboriginal workforce will be 50% in Saskatchewan. That's not quite true, but it will be a very large proportion of the population in Saskatchewan--closer to 20%, a little less than 20%.

Similarly, we also hear a myth that there's mass migration off reserve. I suppose that's based on anecdotal observations. On the slide on page 6, I show the data from the 1996 and 2001 censuses, and it's very clear that there is not mass migration off reserve; in fact, that's far from the case. In fact, I would say the growth on reserve is about 54,000 people, in absolute terms, between the two censuses, and that growth is most likely natural growth, if I can call it that, rather than an increasing number of people identifying themselves as aboriginal.

If you look at growth due to population and demographics, I would say that probably your largest growth is on reserve. It is definitely not shrinking. Where there is some shrinkage, in percentage terms, is in the rural areas of Canada, which is reflective of the situation generally and demographically in Canada.

Also, on the next slide.... I don't know how many times people have said to me, “Do you know where the largest urban concentration of aboriginals in Canada, in any city, is?”, and I say, “Where?” They say, “Toronto”, and I say, “No, that's not the case”. There are 14 cities with an aboriginal population over 5,000, and by far the largest urban concentration is in Winnipeg. Next it's Edmonton, and then Vancouver.

In percentage terms it's a little different, obviously. I think it's important to understand urban concentrations because a lot of the dynamics of new cultural development as well as a lot of the challenges in terms of issues of adaptation, etc., are being felt and will be felt in those cities, particularly Winnipeg, Edmonton, and Vancouver.

I have a few slides on socio-economic status. I'm not going to spend any time on those except to say that they are, unfortunately, what you would expect; that is, that the socio-economic status of aboriginal people is, by most indicators, generally worse--much lower--than that of the general population. But there is one important proviso, and that is, if you look at the aboriginal populations in the east, essentially Toronto and east, you'll find that those populations, by socio-economic indicator, do not have the lowest socio-economic indicators of any population. In other words, if you look at some of the recent immigrant groups, for example, in Toronto, or if you look at, unfortunately, some of the black communities in Toronto, you'll find that the socio-economic indicators are lower than those of the aboriginal community. It does not stand out as a community with a significant substantial difference that you can just see by looking at the data. That's not true in the west. In the west the population clearly with the lowest socio-economic indicators is the aboriginal population. I think that makes a significant difference.

Going on to education, which is the subject we're interested in, and trying to be quicker, I look at three indicators from the census. Those are, first, the failure to complete high school--that's a negative, and the more who do that, the worse it is--then the success in completing either non-university post-secondary education, or, the third indicator, completing university post-secondary education. Page 11 or slide 11 shows the estimated rate of failure to complete high school. You can see that this is very high among the aboriginal population. It remained high in 2001. In fact, the gap between the aboriginal population and the non-aboriginal population really didn't change much. The next page, slide 12, looks at non-university post-secondary education, and there's a positive story to tell here, and it is that the aboriginal population is getting close to the non-aboriginal population in post-secondary education, almost at parity. We'll see that there is even some better news when you look at that on a regional breakdown. We'll see that on a later slide. However, with respect to the third indicator, university post-secondary education, as we've just heard from Roberta and I'm sure you've heard many times before, things are not good at all. The completion by the aboriginal population of university is very low compared to the non-aboriginal population.

These results are disconcerting. So I say to myself, it's one thing to look at the population aged 15 to 65; what happens if I look at the population aged 20 to 24, just to pick a young segment? You'd expect that population to be most influenced by the changes we've had in the last few years in the education system. The answer, unfortunately, is not positive. Slide 14 shows the results for just the population aged 20 to 24, total population versus aboriginal population. You can see, particularly on failure to complete high school, that among the aboriginal population today aged 20 to 24, the failure to complete high school remains over 40%, which I found quite astonishing.

I'm going to skip over some of the next ones, which show some of the regional breakdown, except I want to point to one slide that I think is critically important, particularly in respect of INAC's responsibilities. That's slide 16. This is the high school completion rate on reserve. You can see that it is startling. This is the failure to complete high school for the population aged 20 to 24--not the whole population, just the population aged 20 to 24--in the 2001 census. So these are young adults who went to school in the 1980s and 1990s, not in the 1950s. You can see that in Manitoba the on-reserve failure to complete is around 70%. In the paper I've written, I've described this as a social disaster much like a hurricane or another kind of social disaster, except that it's taking a long time to happen and it's happening in slow motion.

Slide 17 shows the gap in non-university post-secondary education, broken down by region. I'd just point out that in the east, aboriginal students are completing non-university post-secondary education more than some of the non-aboriginal students.

I want to skip to some of the main findings that were interesting, in slide 20. I want to stress that this is data-driven. These are my findings but not my data; this is the census data. I said okay, we know there are way fewer aboriginal students graduating from post-secondary, completing post-secondary, but what happens if we look just at high school students and compare only high school students among the aboriginal population and the non-aboriginal population? It turns out that if we do that, the success in completing some form of post-secondary education is about the same. Those results were pretty robust. I looked at them statistically in a number of ways: by region, which is shown in a little graph on next slide, by gender, and so on--and they remained there. The difference is that if you look at the little bars on slide 20, both populations of aboriginal graduates, about 75%, about three-quarters, went on to complete some form of post-secondary education, but much lower for university.

To conclude, the first thing I'd like to say is that I would like this research to be investigated a little more deeply. I'm using aggregate data, not micro-data. There's a lot that could be challenged. When I've given this kind of presentation to others, particularly researchers, I've said “Get off your butts and do some decent research, because maybe I'm wrong and it's too important a finding and needs to be corroborated by other researchers.” I'm quite willing to be found to be wrong, but I don't think I am.

In my view, what this means is that every single aboriginal student who gets into a post-secondary education institution is vitally important to Canada and to their communities, an incredible opportunity to make a contribution to our future. I hate to see any student drop out or be lost. I'm not trying to say it's one versus the other. I don't think we have the luxury of that kind of trade-off. But given the reality that this data seems to indicate, if we want to get parity in post-secondary education, the only way we're going to get there is through kindergarten to grade 12. The only way we're going to get there is by getting more kids graduating from high school. Otherwise the pool of students who can get into post-secondary is simply too small.

I'll stop there, Mr. Chair, having gone over my time by a few minutes.