Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Dec. 7th, 2006

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for coming to the committee on such short notice.

I think part of the challenge the committee is facing is that we have a number of communities across this country that are in crisis for some reason or another: Garden Hill in Manitoba, the school in northern Manitoba that burned down in 2005--which isn't even going to get to Treasury Board until 2007. Certainly, there are some communities.... Kashechewan, despite the fact that we've had this report, still could face potential flooding in the spring.

I think the challenge the committee is facing is that we have a community in crisis--as many other communities are--and is it the work of the committee to deal with communities on a one-off basis? That's more of a comment, and I don't expect you to comment on that.

I have a couple of questions.

Mr. Howsam, you indicated that in March 2004, which is two and a half years ago, you went into the community, and two and a half years later it sounds like we're getting a working group together. I understand there are certainly some challenges in terms of changes in leadership and all those kinds of things, but I guess I would like a comment on the timelines that you anticipate for seeing some changes on the ground and on what kinds of resources are going to be dedicated towards that, both financial and human resources.

For my third question, my understanding is that you're finished with this file as of Friday, and Ms. Richardson will be the acting RDG. Is there a seamlessness around that process to ensure...? My experience is that as new people come in and take over a file, things do tend to slow down. I just wonder how you're going to ensure that's not going to happen in this particular case.

[Robert Howsam]

I'll try to cover all the questions there.

In terms of your last question about continuity, I've decided to retire from the public service. As of last Monday, I will be on a number of national assignments through April. But certainly, the key assignment I've got is to ensure a smooth transition to Deborah. And there is a brand-new associate regional director general in Thunder Bay who is well-briefed and versed on this file. Both Deborah and that individual will deal with the community—hopefully, next week. So I think the continuity issue is dealt with, and certainly the people behind us, who do the very real work of planning and analyzing construction drawings and dealing with finances, are all there and there is continuity there. So I frankly don't think that will be a challenge.

In terms of resources, just to give the committee some kind of snapshot, Pikangikum is entitled to somewhere around $12 million a year in ongoing funding. On top of that, we would be dealing with any capital activity. The cost attached to these various activities, because of the location, the winter roads, and the realities of construction in the north and the weather that buildings have to face there...the costs of these kinds of structures and activities are just enormous. The school is potentially a $20-million structure. Building houses in the north is incredibly expensive. Servicing lots, putting in infrastructure, is incredibly expensive.

I will find the actual numbers. We have, if my memory serves me correctly, $37 million in our capital plan dedicated to Pikangikum over the next ten years.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

[Inaudible--Editor]...because that's been part of the challenge. The school in northern Manitoba that I'm talking about is not even going to get to Treasury Board until 2007. So there won't be any sod-turning until perhaps 2009.

[Robert Howsam]

It's a very complex step. There is money within the regional budget. If a project is greater than $50 million, then it requires Treasury Board approval. So there can be money in the budget, but the TB-approved process has to happen as well, plus we're anticipating and hoping to access additional funds for this community. For the grid line, we've already invested $7 million. There's the potential cost of another $14 million to finish that grid line. My point is that things are very expensive and very complex.

We've got a potential timeline for these things. Some happen quicker than others. We would hope to see the school within a couple of years and the grid line, etc.—and then the other things follow. The year 2012 could be a date by when all the things are dealt with, but there are incremental steps along the way that I hope will significantly improve the position of this community.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Mr. Albrecht, please.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My apologies to the witnesses for missing the first part of your presentation. I commit to getting the record of what you said, because I want to know more about this community.

The one area you touched on was the Whitefeather Forest. Is that correct? You indicated there is a possibility of up to 300 jobs in that. Can you help me understand what that would represent in terms of the percentage of the total labour force? Also, what are the current employment rates?

Then, what kind of uptake have you had? I think we talked all through this discussion about the importance of relationships and consultation. How does the community respond to some of these initiatives?

[Robert Howsam]

Frankly, the community has been very challenged by this Whitefeather Forest initiative. Because of the strong traditional nature of the community, there's great concern about the husbandry of all the resources, and certainly trees are a crucial one there. So interestingly, and much to the credit to the community, at the same time that they've been working with the province around the Whitefeather Forest initiative, they've been working with a United Nations group around a biosphere type of activity, which covers both Ontario and Manitoba.

So the work they have dedicated to, which INAC supported—in relatively small measures, because it's mostly a provincial initiative—has taken all of those environmental concerns into account to make sure that it is truly a sustainable operation. Frankly, it's taken a lot of time, and there's been significant money spent on actual mapping, so that everybody clearly understands what the forest resource is and how it can be managed appropriately.

The community has about 2,000 people, with 1,200 under the age of 25—these numbers may not be entirely precise—and 150 over 65 years of age, so the workforce would be in between those numbers. So 300-plus jobs would be a very significant change to this economy.

I suspect that the bulk of the positions relate to government activities, government-funded activities, or transportation, or to Northern Store, the health unit—that kind of thing. But 300 jobs, or even a portion of those 300 jobs, would be a truly dramatic change for this economy.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I would like to go on record affirming this kind of economic development initiative, giving our first nations people some dignity of having their own employment and being able to provide for themselves, as long as we're addressing some of the issues you mentioned, the husbandry issues. I'm sure replanting, reseeding, and all of those things are part of the package.

We talked earlier about the potential of a committee visit that my colleague continues to raise here, in terms of the minister's letter. We've agreed that it's probably impractical, if not impossible. You've been there a number of times, or your people have been there. If you were to make three key recommendations to our committee to help us move ahead in improving the lives of the people in Pikangikum, what would they be—three, or four, or five, if you need to? I don't want to put you on the spot.

[Robert Howsam]

That's okay.

I'll invite my colleagues to think about things as well, as my mind processes and I talk at the same time. Whatever progress is going to be made, in terms of improving the life position of people at Pikangikum, it has to be done with the consent of the broader community. So we need to find vehicles to make sure that happens.

We're not just talking chief and counsel, but ensuring that there's comfort in the elder community, and ensuring that there's an understanding of what the young people have, in terms of what they want their future to be. So some broader kind of community process is crucial.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

If I could interrupt, what are the vehicles that could allow this to happen, or how much control, and so on? Can the average person have their voice heard within this community?

[Robert Howsam]

As I said at the top, Pikangikum is a fairly unique and very complex community, and I don't pretend to understand it. I've been physically in the community once; I've met with their leadership probably ten times. There's a family system there that I think allows people to have that feed-up into decision-making processes, but it's not a well-documented process, etc.

I've never heard issues from this community around concerns that people are proceeding without community buy-in, but it's a very challenging piece. So that's one thing certainly, a broad measure of community buy-in.

I think the government has a legitimate role, in terms of ensuring that construction standards, water quality issues, and those kinds of things are met. When there's conflict between a community priority and a government priority, we try to default to the community priority. But we need to make sure that the money is wisely spent, that the buildings are built to last, and so on.

We need to see this, and we also need to engage the broader aboriginal community in northern Ontario. Stan Beardy, the grand chief of Nishnawbe Aski Nation, was with me when I went to the community. I believe he's going to be with Deborah when she goes in next week. So we want to make sure there's some involvement of the Nishnawbe Aski in this case. They are a pretty large, powerful, and sophisticated organization.

Those are three off the top of my head.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

We're running out of time. We have a few discussions afterwards.

Mr. Valley, do you have a short question?

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

They're never short.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Precise, then.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Precise.

Very quickly, I'm going to tell you what I want. You may or may not be able to deliver this. I want to know that the hydro, the school, and the water plant upgrades are all working together so that when we have the agreements we need and the money is there, it all happens together. I don't want the hydro line finished and the school not built.

Clearly, we have good water. We have to get it to the houses, and there's technology to do that. There are ways to get around those gravesite issues. We need to do this. We need to provide that to the people there. Regardless of administrations or individuals coming and going, we need that person who's going to tie this all together.

To have that other side, we need your department to make sure it all happens together.

It's the people on the ground who are suffering.

[Robert Howsam]

I agree with you entirely, sir.

One of the challenges around getting water to houses is that you need electricity, not only to run heat sinks through the lines, but to heat the houses so the pipes don't freeze. Those things all have to happen, not sequentially but at the same time. The whole point of this task force is to try to make sure that when the hydro flows through the line, it's ready to flow to a water distribution system hooked up to some houses.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

That will be when?

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Could I just ask a question?

I lived in a northern community and we had water delivery. The tanks were clean. It worked wonderfully. We had no problem.

What is the problem? Why can't it work? It's a lot cheaper in some cases to provide it that way than to have to electrify so that you need to heat the lines or put in utilidors, or whatever it might be. I can't understand why it's not working. Are they just not maintaining it properly? Are they not upgrading the tanks?

[Robert Howsam]

There were issues of maintenance and issues of community resistance. There was a feeling that if money was spent on that, in fact the broader history.... There are traditional issues there. Regardless of water treatment plants, some of the elders still go to the lake to get their water.

There's nothing straightforward here. It's all very complex and very challenging.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

That's one thing, I guess, that I'm seeing. Why are we looking at trying to put southern Canada--and I know, I lived in the north--standards into a northern community where you have challenges with frost and other issues? I don't know why we can't be innovative and look at the tanks, look at the opportunity to deliver water in a way that's safe, and pump the septic tanks. That can all be done.

We have to finish up here because we have some discussion.

Mr. Bruinooge, go ahead.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Howsam. I'm sorry to hear you're retiring.

We had the opportunity to take a trip together. I was looking forward to that opportunity again in the future. Perhaps it would even have been to Pikangikum. Hopefully you're going to enjoy your next stage of your career. I'm sure you're not going to be fading away.

I want to ask a quick question. What do you think the major barrier is to the bridge being installed? Can you think of what might be able to be negotiated to make that happen?

[Robert Howsam]

I don't know if committee members know about this, but the winter road would be facilitated by a bridge over the Berens River. There are a couple of alternate routes. This winter road not only services Pikangikum, it services a number of other communities. I think it would be safe to say that there are some conflicting interests around routing of the winter road generally and where the bridge might be. I think that's part of the issue.

Also, once again, there are even issues around the elders and whether they want year-round road access, or even greater winter road access. Within the Pikangikum community, there are a couple of different thoughts around bridge location. And as I said, there are some competing interests among the various communities that would be serviced by the winter bridge, which is part of that winter road.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

I'm going to call an end to the questions.

On behalf of the committee members, I want to thank the witnesses for being here.

This issue is actually a sidetrack from what we've been doing. But it's important enough that we wanted to get some insights to see if there is any way we can help or recommend to the minister or assist Mr. Valley with what he's doing for the community.

Thank you very much for being here today.

Committee members, there are a couple things.

We do have the letter, as I mentioned earlier, from Chief Charlie Pascal. Do we have that translated?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Roger Préfontaine]

I'm waiting for the translation. It should arrive any minute now.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I understand that many committee members have it, and I don't.