Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Dec. 12th, 2006

[Gary Merasty, Liberal, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

If I can just interject there for a second, I understand exactly what you're saying. We don't really have an advisory role as a committee. It's not our role, and that's why I don't want to have the wrong expectations raised, number one.

Number two, the minister can pick up the scalpel. I've seen this minister and other ministers in the past pick up the scalpel and act without the department's blessing, for lack of a better term. If they think it's a dire enough situation they have the authority to pick up the scalpel and act immediately, regardless of what reports or what the department has been saying.

That's my concern, because I would really love to see action tomorrow.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

We're running out of time, unfortunately.

Mr. Lemay, do you have something?

Mr. Lévesque, please.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Good morning, Mr. Magnet and Mrs. Desrochers. I don't know if you came all the way from Constance Lake to be here today or if you were already in Ottawa. Nonetheless, if you travelled, it is quite a stretch.

We received some people in committee, namely the elected representatives of the riding. According to the information we obtained in this committee, your community would own a reservoir and a person would be trained to watch this reservoir. You would also have a hydro line which would go up to the community and a stretch of road would be built where a bridge would be missing.

What I regret most about the whole approach about your community is that the committee was considered as an inquiry committee. I'm disappointed because I regarded this committee as a case-study committee which can make recommendations to the department and to the government. In this sense, I don't understand, unless after having heard people, there was a misunderstanding of the situation.

I would understand that we should travel to go and see first-hand how things are. However, we generally are pretty well able, through the testimonies of the people who come before us, to understand the problems and to make the needed recommendations. According to the information, we would have some difficulty to reach the community or to agree with it. I would like to have your opinion on this.

I know that in my riding there are communities where there are no access roads. In my area, the people we cannot reach by road aren't chiefs but Inuit mayors. When I call them they pick me up at the plane. Sometimes I wait for two or three minutes, but I can visit.

The problem in Pikangikum seems to be linked to the access to the community once you are there, if sometimes appointments are made.

I would like to hear your explanations on this.

[Joe Magnet]

I'll answer in English because I think my remarks will me more accurate this way.

First of all, as you mentioned, this is a fly-in community. There's easy access from Ottawa to Winnipeg and Winnipeg to Pikangikum, and you are there. That's the first thing.

I think the second thing is that it is a very interesting place to go. You have heard some testimony before you that it is a very traditional community where the elders are extremely important. It is Ojibway-speaking, with traditional values and very wonderful people. It is something of an eye-opener to see what people have accomplished in the circumstances they're in, where they are trying to go, and what challenges they are facing.

Of course, the committee normally hears witnesses and makes reports, but it has been asked to do a different function, and it's in the committee's hands whether it wants to accept that function. I think the opportunity to see first-hand the opportunities....

I thought Mr. Albrecht had a very important interchange with the officials when there was a reference to the Whitefeather Forest and the potential for 300 jobs, which would have a dramatic impact on the economy of this region. In other words, the community itself has worked this up without any help from the department and sometimes over the department's resistance. This offers an economic future that not all first nations have. Yet that opportunity is being obstructed by people needing water, toilets, and infrastructure, and the community is being held back. I think what you're being asked to do is a very important task: see this opportunity and report on these challenges and see if you have some suggestions to make that would be creative and helpful.

The community, of course, wants you to come, and they welcome you. They think that your role is very important, notwithstanding the important comments that have been made.

I hope these remarks are responsive to your question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

You have less than a minute, Mr. Lévesque.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

The question that remains is whether the community is open to a visit of department officials who could assess the situation and act.

We received some Ontario government officials who talked to us about hydro, for example, of which your community should benefit. Thus, it seems that there is a little snag about the delivery of this system. Why? I don't have to judge all by myself.

However, is the community open to cooperation with the rest of nations surrounding it?

[Joe Magnet]

I'll reply, but Ms. Desrochers has some remarks to make.

My understanding is that the officials are going to the community tomorrow. They, of course, are welcome. Mr. Howsam has been there once before, and the new regional director general and her officials are welcome and will be given all hospitality.

There is the usual process, which is a work-up of these projects through a big bureaucratic process, getting them into the capital plan, getting bids, starting construction. The department, of course, explained to you that it is going to go through that process, that things are challenging and difficult, and sooner or later it will get around to getting all these projects built. That's what it said—over a ten year period, or perhaps later.

You're asked to do something else. You're not asked to substitute for the department, but here is a public health crisis. It's not down the road; it's now. How did it happen? How can it happen in Canada? Yes, Mr. Merasty is absolutely right that other communities face challenges and people sometimes expect miracles, but this one has been brought to your attention, and independently, by an independent health unit.

Here's the challenge. Is the committee satisfied to allow the bureaucratic process to work itself out, and the officials to come here and testify, and that will be it? We'll make our remarks, and that will be it? Or does the committee want to accept the challenge the minister posed to it and look for itself to see whether it's satisfied or whether it has any creative input to add to this process that has produced a serious public health crisis?

I think Ms. Desrochers wants to make some remarks.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Could you be concise? We're actually out of time.

[Charlene Desrochers]

Yes, I'll be a few minutes.

There is in fact an invite from the people of Pikangikum to the standing committee to visit. I just want to make that clear. It was in my speaking notes.

I realize you can't force the minister to act, but your report will increase public awareness of the problem, which hopefully will put pressure on the minister to act. I realize you can't visit every community, because it will open the floodgates, but there are parameters that you can put on the process.

I believe part of your role as a standing committee, and I'm not meaning any disrespect to the committee, is to learn to be sensitive to the needs of aboriginal people. I don't know how many people here have visited an aboriginal community, but this would be a good opportunity. You can hear from witnesses in front of a committee, but if you haven't been to the community and don't see the environment, it's hard to assess the whole situation. Pikangikum does welcome the committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Thank you.

Madam Crowder.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank both of you for coming to appear before us today. I also want to pass on thanks to the chief, council, and elders for passing their message on. It's an important message.

I have read the health unit report, and it's very troubling. From the testimony we heard from the department, it's also very troubling that the department has been well aware of the challenges facing the community. Mr. Howsam talked about being in the community in 2004. It's now late 2006 and we're continuing to have a conversation about infrastructure problems that have been longstanding.

I have a couple of other comments. I would argue that the way to deal with a public health crisis is not by committee. Committees have a life of their own, whether or not it's a standing committee. I don't care what it is, when we have a public health crisis we jump into action with some framework that's already been laid out on how to deal with it. We only have to look at Walkerton, for example, where there was a crisis around water, people quickly moved to deal with the crisis, and then took a step back and looked at how that happened. We have a public health crisis right now in this community that requires some immediate action, and it would not be by committee.

As Mr. Merasty clearly pointed out, it is within the purview of the minister to move in and deal with the situation. We have other examples where that has happened. Patuanak is a good example of a community that faced a devastating crisis and was rebuilt within one year. So the minister can allocate resources and funding to quickly deal with a problem that is deemed a crisis. The minister can take action today with the department.

To re-emphasize, we have no authority as a committee to direct a department. I wish it were true that by raising public awareness we could actually have things change. You just need to point at Kashechewan as an example of a community that still hasn't seen the changes that need to happen, despite the reports, studies, and all the kinds of things that have happened. In Garden Hill there is a serious outbreak of tuberculosis. Port Alberni has just reported an outbreak of tuberculosis. If that isn't a public health crisis I don't know what is. It often leads to infrastructure problems, resourcing issues, funding issues, lack of adequate health care, and the list goes on and on.

Just to let you know, I have visited many first nations communities, and I think most of the committee members have either lived on reserve or spent substantial time on reserves. So many of us have had a bird's-eye view of the very unfortunate conditions many people are living in.

If one of your expectations is to raise public awareness through a visit by the committee, there are other mechanisms to do that. I wonder if you could specifically respond to what you see happening, if the committee were to travel to the community, that would not happen in any other way.

[Joe Magnet]

That's an excellent question. The committee is asked to report, and the committee would bring to this process a pair of fresh eyes to look at the problem. The community thinks that fresh eyes are necessary to look at it, and that the process the department has described to you is not adequate.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

But does the community understand that we have no ability to allocate funding and resources? I've sat on a number of standing committees now and we've done some very good work, but unfortunately those reports have gathered dust.

[Joe Magnet]

As I said in my response to the first question, it's very interesting to be in a democracy. We all wish we had the power to wave the magic wand and make things happen. We all think the minister, the committee, the community, and the bureaucrats should do something. What we can do is our roles.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

That's not normally a role the committee plays. That's my point.

[Joe Magnet]

This is not a normal situation in Pikangikum. The interesting suggestion from the minister, viewed with curiosity, frankly, by the community, is now seen as a thoughtful and welcome way to make a fresh intervention into what is, as you've very eloquently pointed out, a very difficult problem. It's a problem that's not unique to this community but is very severe in this community at the moment.

So yes, what you say is true, the public health crisis is not something solved by committee, but in a democracy there are other authorities that are meant to respond. The fact that the committee assumes a role, takes an interest, and looks with fresh eyes doesn't relieve other people of their responsibility. It doesn't relieve the minister of responsibility, doesn't relieve the department of responsibility, and doesn't relieve the public health authorities of responsibility.

The committee has a role. That role has been given to the committee. The committee can say that others should do their job and that you don't have any input to make that's useful. That judgment is open to the committee. But the community thinks that the committee has great expertise and great wisdom, and that it can make a useful intervention.

For those reasons the community is inviting the committee and hopes that the committee will accept its invitation.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Am I out of time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Yes, thank you.

To that, I just want to say that I think that was the spirit of the letter that was written.

Mr. Bruinooge.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

Thank you.

I want to thank you for coming in today. I appreciate your commentary.

I appreciate as well the invitation to come to Pikangikum. It sounds like a community that obviously has issues that need to be dealt with. At the same time, there are a lot of good things happening there that I'd be very interested in seeing.

Personally, I would be very supportive of coming to the community. I'm not sure how the committee is going to vote on this matter, but I'm hopeful that we as a committee could have the opportunity to visit your community. The kind invitation is appreciated.

I'd like to ask a few questions in relation to some of the infrastructure issues. It sounds like they've been outstanding for many years, even though we've had an Indian Affairs minister residing in that riding. There's a bridge, though, and it seems the bridge, an object that's often referred to, is a bit of a stumbling block. Could you perhaps give us more background on this infamous bridge that seems always to be about to be built, and is not?

[Joe Magnet]

First of all, Mr. Bruinooge, thank you for those comments. They are welcome and they will be conveyed to the community. I know they'll be appreciated.

I did read about the bridge issue from the December 7 transcripts. What you're referring to is a road going north and a bridge to be built somewhere across the Berens River. I did read the interesting interchange that you had with officials about the bridge.

I will confess immediately that you know much more about this issue than do I or Ms. Desrochers. It may be that when you're in the community you will have an interesting discussion with chief and council and portfolio holders about that. We're certainly aware of the road. We're certainly aware of the bridge issue. We know that location is an issue. I just don't think I can add to the balance of considerations that are before chief and council, bureaucrats, or government.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

My interest, though, in this one piece of the infrastructure puzzle is that it seems so many other elements--housing, for example, or the sewer and water construction that's required--are likely dramatically impacted by the fact that all of this material needs to be shipped either by air, goodness forbid, or of course the ice roads. There must be a massive bottleneck in terms of being able to implement so many of these things.

My biggest interest, I guess, in coming and meeting with the community would be to identify what outstanding issues there are in order to get this key project done so that things like water and sewer could quickly flow after that.

[Joe Magnet]

I know the community would certainly look forward to working with you on that. I'm personally very pleased to learn of your interest. I would undertake to liaise with you to find out more and to perhaps satisfy you on exactly what is going on, but I don't know very much now.

On the challenges posed by moving material for infrastructure work, I mentioned that the community used its own funds to build a road. It's called Nungesser Road or the Nungesser Road extension. It goes almost to the community or almost to the shores of the lake opposite the community, where material could be moved by barge.

To my understanding, I have never heard that the northern road and the bridge are tied to infrastructure challenges. In other words, I will correct myself if I'm subsequently wrong, but I've never heard that this poses any difficulty in dealing with the infrastructure problems. It is quite a separate issue.

I have heard and the committee has heard that electricity is a problem. But I again believe there are many ways this can be overcome, perhaps through the temporary use of a second diesel that could then go to some other community. I think these are things the committee could usefully look into.

If I could sum up what could become a complicated technical discussion, my understanding is there is no obstacle to solving these infrastructure problems, whether it's by transport or not. What is really wanted is the will and determination to do it.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

What about the traditional lifestyle? Do you believe we'd have some advocates for the maintenance of that? It seems to be that the way they have continued to live, despite the modern lifestyle that surrounds them in Canada, is a very proud element of the community

Perhaps Ms. Desrochers has a comment on that.

[Joe Magnet]

She may well have a comment. It's very interesting.

Everybody needs a bit of modesty about it. It's a very fascinating thing, but I think a degree of modesty is needed. You have heard testimony that it's a traditional community. Having been there many times, I can tell you it is.

Having said that, this is the only community I know of that has managed to do the work and invest millions of dollars of its own money, without INAC support, to bring it to a state where it can have a sustainable forestry licence. Some people say a sustainable forestry licence is like a licence to print money.

All of the big companies, Capital Home and those kinds of places, have a green movement behind them that requires them to buy sustainable forestry products. This is the coming thing.

This community is built into that. It is a very difficult thing to do. If you were to come to the community, you would hear from Ontario officials who said these are great people to work with and they have made fantastic progress.

Yes, it is very traditional, but it also has an ability to do things that many others, including non-traditional communities, cannot do.

I don't know if you have comments about that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

We're out of time, and we have some comments to make on our post-secondary education report. I'm going to have to end the questioning and thank the witnesses for being here today.

I'm going to ask for a quick in-camera meeting with the committee members to give direction to the clerk on how we want to proceed. We'll then move on to post-secondary education.

Thank you very much to the witnesses for being here on short notice.