Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 22nd, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

We open this Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development, Thursday, February 22, 2007.

Committee members, you have the orders of the day before you.

Mr. Lemay, do you have something? You have just one minute, please.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I would like to set the record straight, Mr. Chair.

My comment is for the parliamentary secretary and for you, Mr. Chair. It seems—and I have two examples to prove it—that the minister is more interested in making announcements and he doesn't care that the committee is sitting. This morning the minister will make an announcement at 11 o'clock. Unfortunately that is when we are sitting.

We received an invitation to attend the launch, on March 1st, of international polar year. This is a matter that affects the majority, if not all members of this committee.

There are two possibilities, Mr. Chair. I would like to remind the parliamentary secretary of that so that he can talk to the minister and ask him to at least try to make his announcements when the committee is not sitting. The other possibility is that we do not sit in order that we can attend these very important major events such as the launch of the international polar year, which, as we know, is very important.

This morning, an important announcement was made on the aboriginal friendship centres. You understand how important these aboriginal friendship centres are to a number of us here.

I would like to clarify this from the outset, Mr. Chair, so that messages are sent to the right people. At the end of the session, we should decide whether or not to sit on March 1st.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Thank you, Mr. Lemay.

The chair agrees fully. I was going to bring that to the attention of the parliamentary secretary. You're correct. This is the second time now that our committee has been sitting during a time when the ministers are making announcements or another function is happening. So I would ask the parliamentary secretary to communicate that to the department.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

I'd be happy to, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Lemay, I assure you that the minister, of course, would like to accommodate the committee. However, there are other ministers involved with this particular announcement. Unfortunately, sometimes the schedules don't accommodate. But I will pass this along and make sure he takes note of it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Thank you, Mr. Bruinooge.

Mr. Lemay, on the launch of the international polar year, I have that to discuss at the end of the meeting and to have a decision from the committee on whether or not they want to have a committee meeting on Thursday of next week. We can discuss that at the end of the meeting.

Committee members, you have the orders of the day before you. The first order of business is pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), consideration of circumstances faced by the Pikangikum First Nation.

The witnesses this morning are from the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. We have Christine Cram, associate assistant deputy minister, socio-economic policy and regional operations; Deborah Richardson, acting regional director general, Ontario region; and James Cutfeet, director, intergovernmental affairs, Ontario region.

The purpose this morning, as the committee requested, is to get an update of the situation in Pikangikum. Then we will be asking questions of our witnesses.

Madam Cram, are you going to be the first to speak?

[Christine Cram, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Socio-Economic Policy and Regional Operations, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Yes.

Good morning. Bonjour.

I'd like to make a few opening remarks, and then I'll

give the floor to Deborah Richardson.

Deborah, James, and I are very pleased to be invited by the committee to provide a progress report on the work that's been under way with the Pikangikum First Nation.

This is a follow-up to the presentation that Mr. Bob Howsam made in December. As you know, Robert Howsam recently retired as the regional director general for the Ontario region. Deborah was with Bob and me on December 7 when we came before the committee, and Deborah has been taking over the file and has very much a personal interest in Pikangikum First Nation.

With that, I'll pass it over to Deborah, and she can speak to the progress that has been made to date.

Merci.

[Deborah Richardson, Acting Regional Director General, Ontario Region, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Thank you for the opportunity. My name is Deborah Richardson. I'm a member of the Pabineau First Nation from New Brunswick, and in my spare time I'm the acting regional director general of Indian Affairs, Ontario region. Here with me is my colleague, James Cutfeet.

James and I are the two leads for the Ontario region on the Pikangikum file. We're here to provide an overall update, communicate the community's priorities for change that the community has passed on and shared with us, and then to entertain questions from the committee.

The first nation's priorities for change in the community consist of electrification, school, water and waste water, and housing. They're also in the process of developing a community-driven action plan that will start to look at their health and social make-up within the community too. That's really driven from within the community, and they're developing strategies about how to engage the youth in terms of what their community looks like.

Pikangikum is a Government of Canada priority. Obviously, all of us are sitting here today wondering what has happened with Pikangikum and what's happening. We continue to work with the first nation and the elders. Just to give you some context, when you go into the community--and I know Roger Valley and other people who have been there can probably attest to this--it's really driven by the elders. You walk in and sit at a table like this, and all around the whole room are about 40 to 50 elders who are anywhere from their seventies to their early hundreds. It's just phenomenal the passion and the energy these elders have in terms of really wanting to drive this community forward and make it a better place for the people who live in Pikangikum.

I attended the community for three full days. Grand Chief Stan Beardy of the Nishnawbe Aski Nation and I have really been personally active on the file, and we spent three full days with representatives of Health Canada and the tribal council, working with the community to try to get the community engaged in an action plan and moving forward.

You'll see through this presentation that many of the elders were concerned that when media and different people talk about Pikangikum, they talk about the poverty and the hunger and the negative things about Pikangikum, not the really positive things. For example, even though their school is not adequate for that community, it's a top-notch program. There are fabulous teachers. They have a principal with a master's degree. They have excellent economic development opportunities. They have a huge forestry project that has the potential of employing over 300 people. They have six fly-in fishing camps. When people think about Pikangikum, I think it's very important to think about the positive things of Pikangikum. So we will stick with and honour that commitment that we made to the leadership.

We went in on December 14, and it was a real eye-opener for me. I don't know if you've ever been into a northern community, but you fly in. There's no other access except for winter road access in the winter. But there's a really good, positive energy within Pikangikum in terms of really wanting to make things better.

A delegation from the community also had the opportunity to meet with the parliamentary secretary, Rod Bruinooge, in Dryden on January 18, and there was an announcement. They're so passionate about their Whitefeather Forest project, and the government has invested significant dollars over the years in this project. There was another announcement of $560,000 for this project in Dryden.

Last week I spent some time with Minister Prentice, and he actually personally spoke on the phone to Chief Pascal from Pikangikum and committed to visiting the community on April 10. So that date's firm and set and we'll all be going in. I'm meeting with Pikangikum next week, and we're going to really make sure we have a solid presentation to present to the minister when he visits the community, and I think the parliamentary secretary is also going to be joining us on that trip.

Aside from all of those things, we've also been working really diligently with Pikangikum around their capital and infrastructure and energy and their funding and education aspects.

We've made significant announcements around Pikangikum and commitments in our long-term capital plan. We have budgeted for over $40 million over five years, which will put in their grid line and get power into the community, bring running water, and build a new school.

Just to give some context, without the electrification and the power, the other things can't happen. You can't connect the school without the power. You can't connect the water without the power. That's really a priority we have with Pikangikum and the tribal council right now, to really work hard with the Minister of Energy and the province and Hydro One Remote Communities in getting that power line up and running.

The first nation also hired an independent facilitator to support the community and to help in the development of this action plan and to coordinate with all of the different governments or agencies that need to be involved in these projects. So the first nation is doing that in terms of their capacity.

What I'm going to really strongly recommend to them is that they put out terms of reference for an independent individual engineer and project manager, because this is a huge amount of infrastructure that's going to happen within the next few years, so it is really key that they have somebody organizing and steering along this development. As I said, the adequate energy supply is absolutely paramount. Without energy you can't do any of the other projects that need to happen.

A real progress for us, for people within the department, was all the parties agreeing finally to connect Pikangikum to Ontario's power grid, with Hydro One operating the system. There was some debate about whether the first nation wanted to operate it themselves or whether they wanted to have a third party like Hydro One operate it. That was real progress, from our perspective. Since then, INAC staff have been in regular contact with Ontario's Ministry of Energy, highlighting issues connecting to off-grid diesel generation, because that's what they're operating on right now. Also, Pikangikum has been in contact with Ontario's Hydro One Networks to seek their support and assistance. It's quite complex connecting to a hydro line.

We've also approved $246,000 to work to restart the grid connection project as quickly as possible. The first nation has hired a consultant who was working on the project in the past. There was some work done over the last few years, so there are some poles, and some of the preliminary work and design work has been done. We're working on upgrading that design work to make sure that is going to work properly for that community.

In the meantime, their existing diesel generators weren't operating the way they should have been, so we made some commitments of up to $2 million in December around upgrading their diesel generators to make sure they have enough power until the power lines are able to go in. That work is under way. It is almost actually completed, but it's still a work-in-progress. It's estimated that, just for the grid connection, it will probably be another $14 million to actually connect the grid line.

Probably within a two-year timeframe the community will have power, which is really exciting stuff for them. You meet with the elders and that's what they talk about. Their dream is to have proper power, a proper school, and running water in that community.

In terms of the school, right now the school is really inadequate in terms of the facility, but in the programs there are dynamic teachers in that community and it is a vibrant place to visit. They have a really great shop class and they're teaching electrical skills to some of the high school students who are there. It's a really great program, but the facility is really inadequate. It's a real priority to get that school up and running concurrently. Out of the $40 million commitment, the school is a portion of that. What we've done is we've facilitated one of the major financial institutions to go into the community to talk about what financing might look like in order to accelerate some of these projects. We have long-term capital plan financial dollars committed over five years, but the community doesn't want to wait five years to have a school built. We need to look at other options to be able to facilitate that, so that when the hydro line comes up, the school will be built and it can be connected, and everything can happen simultaneously.

In terms of water and waste water, based on the power situation, it's impossible to get running water throughout that community right now. We've done some short-term repairs and upgrades to make sure that their existing water--they do have a water treatment plant, but the houses are not connected. There's a teacherage and a school that are connected. We provided $942,000 to repair the water points of entry. There are points of entry around the community from the water treatment plant, and the community members go to these points of entry and fill up their water containers to bring water back to their homes. So we worked on replacing a lot of those containers to make sure they're sanitary and on replacing all the points of entry for the water.

In terms of housing, what's really, really important right now for Pikangikum is that a capital planning study be prepared, because you can't just go and build houses anywhere. You need to plan where the new water treatment facilities will go, where the school is going to go, how the power lines are going to go. Right now they have terms of reference completed, and they've actually shared that with me, so we're going to be finalizing that next Tuesday in Sioux Lookout. Really, to get a capital planning study to talk about where all these things are going to go--where's the building going to go, how is it going to work--is really key in terms of future housing.

We have made commitments. We provide a minor capital allocation to the community so that they can build roads and houses, or whatever they see fit, within their community. They can use up to $660,000 a year for housing. Recently as well there's been a loan to the first nation from CMHC to build some additional housing. There is serious overcrowding within that community. Their living conditions are unacceptable, so we need to work diligently in making sure that there is power and water and adequate shelter for the members of Pikangikum. The annualized capital funding that we do provide to the community is $1.34 million for capital work. I just want to share that as well.

I think that's basically it in terms of the technical work. As you can see, we've been working like crazy for the last two months making sure this is addressed.

I just want to share that I haven't spent a lot of time in the department, but I'm really quite overwhelmed and pleased by how, from the minister to the deputy minister to the receptionists who work within the department, everybody is really committed to improving the quality of life for the members of Pikangikum. It's the government and all of you sitting at the table as well. I'm really, really pleased as a first nations person to see that the Government of Canada is standing up and paying attention to the community members who live in Pikangikum.

I'd like to thank you very much for your time, and if you have any questions, please feel free.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Thank you very much for the presentation.

We'll start off with Mr. Valley, please, for five minutes.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Thank you very much.

Cut me off early, because I'd like to share my time with Anita Neville.

I'm impressed with your enthusiasm. It's very nice to see. I'll have to say I'm shocked that you spent three days in the community--that's quite a commitment. I'm glad to hear you don't spend a lot of time in the department, because you need to be out in the communities. In our conversations outside this room, that's what I encourage everyone to do, to make sure they get in and visit communities.

I have three questions. Maybe I'll lump them all together. You've touched on them. First of all, I'm going to go back to the comment you made about the elders. The strength in any community is the elders. The support I have in the communities is the number of elders I actually get out to see at meetings or who visit me at the airport when I'm leaving. So I understand that totally, and it's absolutely correct. Pikangikum has tremendous resources and tremendous capacity in its elders, and it really needs to use those. Continuity in any community, whether it's Toronto or Pikangikum.... You need continuity.

I believe you've touched slightly on how you're going to move forward if there are changes in administration, how you keep the ball moving forward.

As to my three questions--I'll be quick because my time is short--on electrification, you mentioned two years. That's a long time. I know part of the line was already built. Maybe there's some difficulty with the delays we've had, but two years is too long. So I want to know what date we're actually going to start putting something in the ground. I know you have concerns because there are other professionals you have to deal with.

On the school, I think the minister's going up on April 10. It's the perfect time for him to tell what day we're going to dig the hole for that school.

On the waste water, I'm very happy to hear you have containers because that's one of the things I mentioned to the minister when this issue first broke. He needed to deal with some of the containers being used in that community, because I've seen them personally. I'm very glad to hear that. It's very positive. So I'm thankful for that.

On the points of entry and the $942,000, would you clarify that it's strictly to deal with where they can go to pick up water around the community? I visited all those sites when I was up there.

If you could tell me or the committee how we're going to make a plan to hook up these homes, which is a huge job.... There are roughly 400 homes there. How are you going to hook up those 400 homes? What plan is in place for that? It's a major job.

I think we've discussed ad nauseam the problems that were perceived to be there. Anything can be done if it's just a matter of putting resources to it in that community.

I know that's a lot in a very short time, but I'd like to give the last couple of minutes to Anita Neville. If you could, help me out as much as you can.

As the last thing--because I won't get a chance to speak again--I thank you for your commitment to the community, but we have to stay at it and we have to stay in the community. I want to personally thank you for that.

[Deborah Richardson]

In terms of the hydro line, I don't know if you're aware of connecting hydro, but you need to work with licensing, to have lawyers. It's quite complex. Even the experts are saying 18 months is conservative. So that's why we're saying within two years. Unfortunately, you can only go as quickly as all of the ducks that need to be lined up to make that happen.

If I can comment on the elders of Pikangikum--and if anyone's interested, they can have it--I actually have a resolution from the elders of Pikangikum, a commitment to this process:

We the undersigned of The Council of Elders of Pikangikum,

Recognizing that Band elections and new leadership changes cause Pikangikum First Nation infrastructure and social projects to become stalled or redirected from their intended purposes,

Recognizing that numerous projects directed towards infrastructure and social improvement--electrification, water and sewer, housing, school and health facility construction, education and training, operations and maintenance, health and cultural programs--need to be delivered and reported upon in a timely manner,

Reaffirming that the slowdown or redirection of infrastructure and social projects is putting the health and safety of the community at risk,

Stressing that it is critical that we assure the Federal and Provincial Ministries, who fund these projects and programs, of our ability to carry through on their delivery, Declares:

For the health and safety of community members, the Chief and Council and future elected Chiefs and Councillors shall allow developing or ongoing projects and programs which were approved by the community to continue operating and moving forward.

This is absolutely paramount, because one of the challenges that Pikangikum has had is there is often a change in leadership. When you're frustrated, you want to just get a new leader in. This was real progress, as far as I'm concerned, for that community moving forward. So you are right.

In terms of the school, we do have terms of reference that are going out. I'll be able to confirm more of that on February 27, next Tuesday, in Sioux Lookout. We really see those projects as going concurrently. Until you have an actual RFP in the design of a school, it's going to be pretty hard to know exactly when you're going to be able to dig. I don't know how realistic that'll be before April 10, but as soon as we know, that community's going to know because they're involved in this process and they're working with us.

In terms of the containers, you're right. The conditions for how that community was and is able to access water were and are appalling. Anything we can do to ease that transition until they have proper running water, the more we can do.... Thank you for articulating that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Mr. Lemay or Mr. Lévesque.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

No, I do not have many questions, Mr. Chair. I will probably leave the floor to those from Ontario.

I am a little surprised that all that was done in less than two months. Ontario is your jurisdiction. Potentially how many Pikangikum members are in that province?

[Deborah Richardson]

In Ontario alone—I can't speak for the rest of the country—there are 26 communities that are diesel-generated-operated communities, so they're not connected to the hydro. Many of them do use truck-haul water and they're not connected. I would say there are probably about 10 other Pikangikum communities within Ontario.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I am very pleased with what I am hearing. This is in good hands. Is the department just as eager, as you currently are, for other communities as it is for the Pikangikum community? Will the other communities be taken care of like Pikangikum, or we will wait for the members of the community to protest or for there to be a crisis like in Pikangikum?

[Deborah Richardson]

Within Ontario, we're really trying to focus in on the communities that are the most at need. I feel—and this is my own philosophy—let's just take it one step at a time and deal with emergency situations in terms of high-risk water situations. We've made Pikangikum one of our six regional priorities. It's the only community that's a priority. So Pikangikum is now. Then we focus on another community and another community, step by step by step, and doing it right by bringing in other parties such as provincial governments, other federal departments--not just Indian and Northern Affairs--and the private sector. I think that's really important. I see our role within Indian Affairs as a facilitator in bringing in other departments and players that can support these communities.

The budget for the Ontario region is almost $1 billion, and out of that, $150 million is for major capital. We take that $150 million annually and try to prioritize that around water and high-risk plans. So those 10 other communities are the communities that we're really trying to focus in on.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

If I understand correctly, you are healing, not preventing. You wait until there is a problem in the community, then you fix it. You do not move forward with the idea that it will cost less to do things immediately.

Is Pikangikum the only reserve that is not accessible by road? Are there other areas that are not accessible and do not have electricity either?

[Deborah Richardson]

I think it's really important to be more proactive. We have 130 first nations within Ontario. Many of these communities aren't connected and are remote access. But some of these communities.... For instance, in North Caribou First Nation, 80 members of the community work in the gold mine. It's a myth to think that people in northern Canada, or northern Ontario, aren't working, aren't sustaining themselves, and aren't having a good life. There are many, many strong communities that are doing very well. For the communities that need a bit of support, I think it's important that we facilitate that, but really a lot of things need to be.... To me, the role of government is to support those communities in terms of making those communities better places for their children. So we try to be as proactive as we can, and that's really what we've been doing with Pikangikum and some of the other communities.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Mr. Marston, welcome to the committee. I know you're replacing the new grandmother, and thank you for doing that.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

She's quite excited at this point, Mr. Chair, and thank you.

Several questions come to mind. I heard you say you're from New Brunswick. I was born in Plaster Rock, New Brunswick. I lived in a house without running water, so I have a sensitivity to loading up the car, filling the pails to bring home, and the caution that was needed to be taken to ensure that your water supply was fit for use. Of course, that's almost 100 years ago now--pardon my joking. I turn 60 next week, but that's okay. When you say elders, I just look around.

I love to kid about things, but we all know how serious this is. You mentioned that there are 500 homes to be connected. Will the water supply system that is there now be able to handle that, or do we have to make significant changes? There's one question.

I don't recall hearing much about sewage. Will that be part of the infrastructure that goes in? I presume it will be.

Another question that came to mind is we talked about the capital dollars around the school, and I think the figure was $18 million, if I remember correctly, and you were bringing in the banks to help with that. Is there any reason the federal government couldn't step up and move that money sooner rather than bring in the banks? We're great fans of banks, as people have probably heard these days.

The other thing is, in the context of the other 10 communities you were referring to, can this strategy be broadened? Will the applications that are going to take place in this one committee apply across...? Although we have $1 billion involved, if we had more cash, could we move faster? Even though it's a significant amount, is the lack of dollars a problem?

[Deborah Richardson]

Yes, lack of dollars is a problem. There's never going to be enough money, right? How do you address poverty? It really is so complex.

In terms of sewage, it is part of the long-term plan to connect water and sewage. In terms of the capacity, in the existing water plant there's not enough power to connect to the houses, so that's a huge challenge. As well, it doesn't have enough capacity to connect to all of those, so there will have to be a new enhanced water treatment facility.

[Christine Cram]

You raise the issue of banks and funding.

One thing is the way the federal government funds on a year-by-year basis. That's not how any municipality funds its infrastructure. As a federal government, we really need to look at how we would do infrastructure differently so that you can get the moneys. Provinces are also looking at what they call P3s, and things like that. We recognize the way we're doing infrastructure isn't a way that's going to work to get the infrastructure to communities when they need it. We're undertaking to look at a better way to do it.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

If I might add, we're certainly not fans of P3s, but on the other hand, a true strategy has to go beyond one year's funding. It's very clear that people will be spending a lot of their time sitting and planning from year to year when they could be investing their time and energies elsewhere.

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

[Deborah Richardson]

If I could just add one more thing, though, in terms of the financing, my whole capital budget within the Ontario region is $150 million. It would literally bankrupt the region if I were to advance those projects, and I wouldn't be able to support other first nations communities within Ontario. So that's a challenge we face. We really have to start looking outside the box and looking at alternatives as to how to expedite some of these projects.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

There is a surplus that we have in this government.

[Deborah Richardson]

Not with my region.

We work right down to the bottom line, let me tell you. It's bare bones. The needs are so great. They really are.