Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 22nd, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Can I just have some clarification?

In one discussion we had, the problem with the water connection is that they don't necessarily have consistent heat in the home, so that if somebody leaves and they have a wood-burning stove and it goes out, they have water charged into the home. Then all of a sudden it freezes and there's a big problem. We did discuss around this table the option of water delivery because the building would be independent.

Do you look at other alternatives rather than, oh yes, we have to hook everybody up? Are there other ways to provide water than by running all this costly infrastructure?

[Deborah Richardson]

We have looked at other alternatives, but it's what the community wants. There are all kinds of challenges around those too because it is in the north. There are challenges around different alternatives about connecting through that way--I mean water freezing.

The problem with the northern model if you run the utility lines above the ground is that it costs so much money for the community in terms of the power. It's cost-prohibitive for many communities to be able to operate because it costs a lot of money to run the water through the lines like that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

I lived in the north also, and we had water delivery, but they also had a system. They had what they called water bleeders that were running all the time. In a small community of 1,000 people they were pumping 8 million gallons a day of water. That's not really efficient. The water delivery was a far superior system because it was water delivery to a tank, charged to the house, and it was independent of the system. And it was actually a lot cheaper to operate, as long as it was well maintained.

I'll turn it over to the other side.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

Thank you very much for coming to present today.

I had the pleasure of meeting with a few of the band councillors from Pikangikum myself in January. That community is very interested in being able to work with government and with you to achieve some of these goals. They did indicate to me, though, that over a number of years there did seem to be a bit of a lapse in any intervention in their community. I guess that was their biggest concern, especially on the power grid. It's definitely one thing that we're going to be focusing on. I agree with you that the power line is the essential component to actually achieving all of the other elements of this community's needs. Without the early electrification, everything else is a moot point. Politically, we would like to continue to impress upon the department to be very focused on achieving that goal.

The community was also very interested in having a visit to Pikangikum. I'm really happy to be a part of that trip planned for April. I know the minister is excited about getting up to northern Ontario. There are many communities that are experiencing that burgeoning growth that we are so excited about. Community growth is always good. Pikangikum is another example of that. This community is growing exponentially. It's one of the fastest-growing communities in northern Ontario. How to accommodate all of that growth is of course the challenge the department has.

I think housing is a challenge in that community probably because the road doesn't go all the way, only in the winter. It is very difficult to get the building supplies in. When you don't have a good power supply either, it does make it challenging. I think as long as we continue to assist them on that important project of electrification, many of these other problems will also begin to fall by the wayside.

The one question I would ask is if you could maybe talk a bit about some of the origins of the power line project. I know it dates back many years into the early nineties. Perhaps you could give us a bit of a timeline on when it occurred and some of the other roadblocks it faced.

[Deborah Richardson]

Because I'm so new to the department--literally, I've worked at the department for three years--I'm not really too familiar with the history. I do know that there was an engineer and there was some work done in the past. We're going to get permission in terms of contracting to make sure that we don't have to re-tender it out, and we can use the same engineers so the work that was done in the past can continue on with the same company. I'm not really familiar with what happened or how the projects got derailed. I'm really trying to focus on moving forward. I know that Pikangikum is really trying to work on moving forward as well.

I have all the minutes from the meetings. That's really the goal--to forget about what's happened in the past and to really try to move forward on where we're at and where we're going in terms of developing the grid lines.

I'm sorry I can't give you more history. I could find out more details.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

It's important to try to assess what the bottlenecks and the issues were previously. The community has given me some anecdotal information as to the reasons they felt these projects weren't proceeding. As you said, they're very pleased about being able to move forward. They do want to shed many of the issues they faced in the past. They were very open to me, and very receptive to having government interested in their problems. I'm very much looking forward to going up and meeting again with them to help move all these major projects forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Madam Neville is next.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you very much.

Thank you for coming, and thank you for giving us a picture of what's happening at Pikangikum. I particularly appreciate hearing about the vitality of the community. I think it's unfortunate that it took a crisis for some action to be taken.

I have a couple of questions. You've identified a whole series of dollars that will be going into Pikangikum for various projects. Are those dollars being redirected from other projects, or is it new money that will be going into Pikangikum within your own budget allocation?

Second, and I don't want to understate this, I really value and support what is happening at Pikangikum, but I'm equally concerned about what's not happening in other communities. I think particularly of Whitedog, which I'm sure you're familiar with, which had a school committed to it that it's not moving forward on, where there aren't enough chairs for the students to sit on, where the walls are caving in, where the caretaker is alleged to have died because of mould in the schools, where only 180 of the 400 children are going to school, and where some of the classes are in fact being conducted in the teacher's living room. How are you addressing those kinds of issues? Tell me about the allocation of dollars and how that's playing out.

[Deborah Richardson]

First of all, as I indicated earlier, our long-term capital plan within the region is $150 million. We have programmed Pikangikum, the $40 million, into the long-term capital plan over five years. So it's not new dollars; it's our regional allocation, and that has been programmed in.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

My concern is whether other programs have been bumped in order to address Pikangikum.

[Deborah Richardson]

No, other programs haven't been bumped. In fact, that was already factored into the long-term capital plan. It's been in there for a couple of years, or over a year, I think, anyway.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

If that's the case, why did it take a crisis to make it happen? Can you speak to what's happening at Whitedog, or not happening?

[Deborah Richardson]

I can speak about what's happening in Whitedog.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

We're getting a little bit sidetracked, because the reason we're here is Pikangikum, so--

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I understand that, but one impacts on the other, Mr. Chair.

[Deborah Richardson]

Whitedog is in the long-term capital plan. I think they were going through the design phase of the school, and I think the school is being built next year. You can't just go and build the school; you have to design it, you have to--

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I'm well aware of that.

[Deborah Richardson]

We remediated the facility as well, in terms of remediation. We've been working with the first nation and the chief on improving the facility, to last until we can build a new facility within Whitedog.

Pikangikum hasn't taken away from Whitedog. Whitedog is in the plan. The school is going ahead. We're building the school in Whitedog.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Is it possible for you to share with us the long-term capital plan?

[Deborah Richardson]

I believe it's a public document. I think it was tabled before.... We'll check, but I believe it's a public document.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Well, we'll follow up, but if you would, I would appreciate it as well.

[Deborah Richardson]

Okay. Certainly.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you.

That's fine.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Thank you.

You have about a minute and a half.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Well, I'll never give up the chance to speak about a community in my riding.

You mentioned $150 million. You mentioned the planning stage. Can you tell us when the money was allocated for the hydro line? When did we start this project? I remember working on it. I know it started...Mr. Bruinooge says probably eight years ago, and it was never done.

I'm getting concerned about when we start this project. I know you've given me the reasons, but I'm concerned that we actually get the engineer on the site. The committee should know that much of the infrastructure that was brought in to finish this hydro line has deteriorated because it wasn't done.

Can you tell us that part?