Evidence of meeting #49 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was consultation.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Viola Eastman  Canupawakpa Dakota Nation, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs
Chief Sydney Garrioch  Manitoba Keewatinook Ininew Okimowin
Michael Anderson  Research Director, Natural Resources Secretariat, Manitoba Keewatinook Ininew Okimowin
John Paul  Executive Director, Atlantic Policy Congress of First Nation Chiefs Secretariat Inc.
Lawrence Paul  Co-Chair, Atlantic Policy Congress of First Nation Chiefs Secretariat Inc.
Chief Chris Henderson  Manitoba Southern Chiefs' Organization
Irene Linklater  Director, Research and Policy Development, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs

Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank you all for coming and presenting before us today.

Part of our job here today is to sit down and listen to you and determine which aspects of this legislation need to be kept, which aspects need to be amended, and whether there are any aspects that need to be thrown out. Unfortunately, I only have five minutes. I would love to spend quite a bit of time discussing this with all of you.

I'd like to go to Chief Eastman first. I appreciate the brief. I thought it was very succinct.

Do you believe the status quo we have in the community today is working?

12:40 p.m.

Canupawakpa Dakota Nation, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs

Chief Viola Eastman

No, it's not working.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB

Try not to go on too long, but what aspects do you see that we need to make some changes to? Is this field, such as the repealing of section 67, not a good first step, as long as we can maintain some of the boundaries that you have set out within your brief?

12:45 p.m.

Canupawakpa Dakota Nation, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs

Chief Viola Eastman

I'll get Irene to answer that from AMC's perspective.

12:45 p.m.

Director, Research and Policy Development, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs

Irene Linklater

Thank you, Chief Eastman.

On the question of whether the status quo is satisfactory, no, it's not satisfactory in either substance or form with respect to how the inherent rights, the treaty rights, and substantive rights of first nations people have been undermined through legislation not of their making—the unilateral statement that was made in the AMC submission; with respect to not being engaged in looking at how laws impact us, but seeing them imposed upon us, which is what's happening right now; with respect to the non-implementation of the treaty relationship, not having a fiscal arrangement in equality with the federal government.

The relationship between the Crown and first nations has not been respected. We are essentially provided with programs and services in the communities. We're allocated essentially a program department as opposed to enjoying a nation-to-nation, government-to-government relationship.

So the answer to whether the status quo, in that broader sense of the question, is good today is no, it's not; there need to be a lot of improvements. We are looking at human rights as having been and continuing to be violated now, because there is substandard housing or no housing; there are no roads to some of our communities, while they are taken for granted in other communities.

The argument being made that there's only so much money that can be allocated, because each fiscal year only allocates a certain amount of dollars to first nations people, in fact violates human rights from an international standpoint. There is a human right in international law to proper housing, full and adequate housing. Until Canada looks at international law principles of free prior informed consent and to the other national instruments that look to respecting indigenous people in Canada, then we are not going to get beyond dialogue. We're going to fail.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB

I don't mean to cut you off.

Your point then is that before we can implement repealing these human rights that don't currently exist on-reserve, we need to first properly fund the reserves so they can accommodate these human rights that aren't currently being fulfilled, that aren't there.

A witness

That's a partial—

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB

I have a couple of questions. How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

You have a minute.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB

I will ask both my questions here.

The first one is, do you have any dollar figures for what you see, even in your area, that you would need in order to be able to fulfill this?

Second, Chief Eastman talks about the consultations that occurred with matrimonial property rights in your area. You don't have time to answer all the questions, but obviously there would have been documentation. Would you be able to provide the committee with some of the information and documentation as a result of those briefings that occurred, so we could get some feedback from people on the ground?

12:45 p.m.

Canupawakpa Dakota Nation, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs

Chief Viola Eastman

Sure, we can provide it. We have the dialogue sessions all written out, and I can forward them. Indian Affairs should have them.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB

On the dollar figures, have you any idea how much more money you think the federal government needs to put into the system? Does anybody have that number?

12:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Atlantic Policy Congress of First Nation Chiefs Secretariat Inc.

John Paul

I think there has been some analysis done on that. I know the AFN has done an analysis of the impact of capital funding of the last decade, and based on that....

The way you look at it is the pie, and the pie is the same pie. It's getting thinner, basically. We're having more and more people we have to feed with it, and right now, in terms of the current scenario, unless we set fundamental standards of services for everybody on all activities and so on, it really comes down to providing basic services for people in communities. A lot of our people are in poverty. It's quite substantial in terms of what it is, and the AFN nationally has done some analysis of the impact of the fiscal gap that exists. If you look at that in terms of individual regions and look more closely, in terms of individual communities, at what impacts have occurred over the last decade, you will really begin to see and understand exactly the cause and effect in terms of limited growth, in terms of funding and the impact on services and programs at the community level.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB

If you were given that money, then, would you--

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Mr. Storseth, you're out of time.

Madam Crowder.

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Mr. Chair, actually the department itself, INAC, has done an extensive analysis of the chronic underfunding on a cost drivers project that they did, and it was clear across a number of fronts. Indian and Northern Affairs Canada itself has admitted that there is serious underfunding.

I want to come back for a second. It seems, in effect, that this issue around the repeal of section 67 is being portrayed in a really simplistic manner, that either you're against human rights or you're for human rights; if you oppose the bill you're against human rights. It seems to me that what I am hearing from people presenting today is that the crux of this matter is the lack of recognition of a nation-to-nation status and that a unilateral decision-making process does not take into account a nation-to-nation consultative process; it undermines treaty rights and undermines that nation-to-nation status. It seems to me it's that kind of mindset that is actually getting in the way of getting to the issue around human rights, when we can't even recognize the nation-to-nation status.

Could you comment on that?

12:50 p.m.

Manitoba Keewatinook Ininew Okimowin

Grand Chief Sydney Garrioch

Thank you, member of Parliament. It was a good question, the earlier question about the status quo.

I think we are looking for a safeguard from the further eroding or terminating or extinguishment of any of our rights. The basic fundamental issues as well as the principles of the Kelowna accord will be able to address some of the fundamental issues of why people feel left out, why people feel discriminated against because they cannot get access to housing, that they can't get the education sponsorship, or basic health care services, or any other basic services in that sense.

We are at the level of trying to deal with the system itself about the remedy. We acknowledge the problems. We try our best in our capacity in our communities to resolve problems at our level the best way possible.

We have customary laws; they're all handwritten, but that knowledge and education are passed on from generation to generation. So that customary law brings not only the leaders, but elders, women, youth or people in question, parents, relatives, and extended relatives. The process is trying to come up with a proper resolution.

So we have a system. But you're trying to impose that system. Your way is the right way, but not our way. That's the issue. We are trying to do what we can at the level of the capacities we have and the resources we have in our system.

Now, if you want to open up the question of human rights, the question of treaty rights to education, the treaty rights to housing, the treaty rights to health, or any of the treaty rights about our wildlife and our resources on the land, and the question about the infringement or the land being taken away.... We have little land left, and the former Prime Minister said, we stole the land.

That's the question. What further are you trying to do, with all the implications that arise, not only the commission—nor to the Canadian Human Rights Act or the Indian Act or further to what section 25 in the Canadian Constitution Act is supposed to protect? The existing rights that we have are little. We're trying to protect what little we have left.

Your legislation or your policies or your system will essentially assimilate us. We are trying to safeguard what little we have, and we're trying to present in such a way—don't do it your way. We've tried to establish a process that is already established in our community. We already have a system in place, but the laws are unwritten. These are the things for which we need a capacity within the system itself, because it's there. Don't disrupt that. Don't take that away from us. It's our right. Those are the things we want to echo and present to the standing committee. We want to do it the right way.

Our people are the decision-makers. Our people are driving the system. We should not allow the parliamentarians to do such things that disrupt that and take that away from us. We're just trying to make sure it's there. We want to be able to develop a system from our people's perspective and from our forefathers', and we're building that future to carry on the duty and responsibilities. As trustees, as leaders, we're trying to do the right thing to keep that fiduciary duty within our system.

If you want to open it, how many complaints are you going to have across Canada with human rights to the Minister of Indian Affairs or you as the members of Parliament to the Government of Canada? Do you want open that up? And how long are you going to take to solve the problems that exist now? Every one of our people may register and file a complaint against you.

We want to resolve the problems. We want to work with you. Let's do it a better way, a proper way.

Thank you.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Thank you, Chief Garrioch.

I think we've completed a round. I'm going to ask you a question because we're back to the government side.

One of the things, Mr. Paul and Madam Linklater, you talked about is adequate housing and access to education, all of those. The positive thing I see in this bill is that through the court system we would be able to identify what is adequate housing, identify what is reasonable access to education, and those kind of things.

That's just a thought of a positive thing, and I'm not discounting those things you've said. But that is a challenge when there are comments made about how there needs to be more housing. What is adequate housing?

Mr. Paul, perhaps you could just briefly address that.

12:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Atlantic Policy Congress of First Nation Chiefs Secretariat Inc.

John Paul

One example, so you'll understand in terms of this scenario, is two simple statistics that I keep in my head all the time.

One is about university education. In Atlantic Canada we have over 800 students in universities in Atlantic Canada and across Canada; 75% of them go to Atlantic universities in Atlantic Canada. The thing with that is that there are 800 more who want to go, so what do we do about them? That's the scenario; that's the reality that exists right now.

In terms of incomes, a measure of who we are, in Atlantic Canada our first nations only make 42% of what the incomes are of other Atlantic Canadians--42%. You look at that in reality and you ask how we can become part of whatever. That's part of the reality that exists.

Lawrence's and some of the other communities, the larger communities, have backlogs of...God knows. My community is a little smaller than Lawrence's, and I know the backlog is a couple of hundred units.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rod Bruinooge Conservative Winnipeg South, MB

How are you allocating those university positions right now? How are you allocating those university slots?

12:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Atlantic Policy Congress of First Nation Chiefs Secretariat Inc.

John Paul

They're basically allocated based on the policy that was adopted by the community in terms of establishing set priorities, primarily modeled on the E-12 guidelines that were created—

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rod Bruinooge Conservative Winnipeg South, MB

So if you brought human rights, perhaps it would be allocated in a different way.

12:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Atlantic Policy Congress of First Nation Chiefs Secretariat Inc.

John Paul

But if you have more, twice as many, then—

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rod Bruinooge Conservative Winnipeg South, MB

You might use some other criteria to allocate those positions, though. Education--

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Okay, I'm not going to allow...Mr. Bruinooge, please, the chair has not recognized you.

Thank you. I really do appreciate the witnesses here, and your input. Thank you for that.

The meeting is adjourned.