Evidence of meeting #5 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was claims.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Paul LeBlanc  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Socio-economic Policy and Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Mary Quinn  Director General, Strategic Policy and Devolution Branch, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Warren Johnson  Assistant Deputy Minister, Lands and Trust Services, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Audrey Stewart  Director General, Specific Claims Branch, Claims and Indian Government Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Allan MacDonald  Director General, Federal Interlocutor for Métis and Non Status Indians, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Caroline Davis  Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Order, please. This is the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development.

Committee, you have the orders of the day. The first item is to listen to the witnesses from the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. We're happy to have with us today Mr. Paul LeBlanc, senior assistant deputy minister; Allan MacDonald, director general, the federal interlocutor for Métis and non-status Indians; Audrey Stewart, director general, specific claims branch, claims and Indian government sector; Warren Johnson, assistant deputy minister, lands and trust services; and Caroline Davis, assistant deputy minister, corporate services.

Welcome to the committee. Thank you for being here.

Mr. LeBlanc, do you wish to lead on?

Committee, I think we're going to be somewhat informal. But, Mr. LeBlanc, I'd like to have some direction as to whether you would like to take questions as you present or whether you would want to wait until the end.

3:30 p.m.

Paul LeBlanc Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Socio-economic Policy and Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, committee members, for the opportunity to join you today and present on the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs, and to entertain your questions and dialogue with you.

I am pleased to be here with you today. Thank you for giving me this opportunity.

Mr. Chairman, we have a very broad and complex subject of discussion today. That's why a number of us came, so we could, as much as possible, dialogue with you on all the matters that are of interest to committee members. We have a brief deck. It is very much a brief overview document. I could go through it quite quickly, if members wish, and then we would have, I expect, ample time for questions and dialogue, if that's suitable, Mr. Chairman.

So, if I may, as I said, here is a brief overview deck to focus on the broad areas of responsibility of the department. It is divided into the major areas of activity of the department. For the most part, the subject matters of the deck and the organizational components they represent in the department are represented by people here today who can work with me in presenting and addressing your questions.

You will see on page 2 that in broad terms, the overall responsibility of the department, pursuant to our legislation, is the support of first nations and Inuit people in developing healthy, sustainable communities and in achieving their economic and social aspirations. In the broad area of northern affairs, the department is responsible as a lead in fulfilling the federal government's constitutional, political, and legal responsibilities in the territories. The legal framework for the department's activities, of course, is provided by the Indian Act, the Indian Oil and Gas Act, the First Nations Land Management Act, various territorial acts, claims and self-government legislation, and of course, section 35 of the Constitution Act 1982 and section 91.24 of the Constitution Act of 1867.

The minister is also responsible as the interlocutor for Métis and non-status Indians. The office of the interlocutor is an office of advocacy and facilitation. The minister plays this role for this constituency and its organizations auprès federal ministers on a wide variety of issues, and the office also serves as a policy and programming centre of expertise for cabinet on Métis and non-status Indian issues.

The first broad area of activity in the department is that of claims and Indian government. Herein is the responsibility, on behalf of the Government of Canada, for the negotiation and implementation of comprehensive and specific claims agreements and self-government agreements, which brings opportunities for reconciliation by resolving disputes that are represented in specific or comprehensive claims. It also brings the legal certainty that flows from these settlements. Certainty provides, of course, for economic growth and a more promising future for aboriginal people and all Canadians.

In many cases, claims settlements--specific or comprehensive claims--are very relevant to resource-sector opportunities and for settling issues and bringing certainty in title, which is essential for the economic development that brings prosperity, not only to aboriginal people but to Canadians in general. Such activity provides aboriginal communities with the tools to improve their governance, increase their self-reliance, and break the cycle of dependency associated with the Indian Act.

Another broad area of activity of the department is that of lands in trust. It is an Indian Act area that has a certain legacy of limitations in terms of the management by the department of Indian lands and assets, under limitations of an Indian Act that is not in keeping in any way with modern opportunities for land management, land and asset development, and the pursuit of economic opportunities that flow from modern management of lands.

The department takes a three-pronged approach with respect to first nations lands, governance, and individual affairs. The first is working in partnership with first nations on legislative tools and intergovernmental arrangements to enable first nations to assume governing authority and responsibility in transition to self-government.

The full self-government outcome, of course, would afford first nations the opportunity to manage their lands, resources, and assets quite independently of the restrictions of the Indian Act. It is a long process to realize full self-government, so the strategy under lands and trusts is to target specific areas of land management through specific innovative legislation that allows first nations to opt in, for example, under the First Nations Land Management Act, allowing them the legal framework and authorities to manage their lands in a way that's more in keeping with modern opportunities, economic and otherwise.

The strategy also fosters professional and institutional development to support first nations government, including a first nations professional public service and institutions. This is the sector of the department that supports band leadership councils in their governance endeavours and their professional management at the band level and at institutional levels that support broader communities—tribal councils and other regional organizations.

The initiative also supports sound federal stewardship under the Indian Act during the transition to first nations governance. The First Nations Commercial and Industrial Development Act is a recently passed piece of federal legislation that allows for federal governance on reserve, but in a way that's much fuller and more enabling of economic opportunities than would otherwise be possible under the Indian Act.

This legislation fills a vacuum whereby today large industrial projects are governed and regulated, by and large, by provincial jurisdiction. For on-reserve applications, there is a void in the legislative and regulatory framework for the development of major industrial projects. This act allows first nations that wish to do so to engage with the department, with the cooperation of the respective province, to have in place a modern legislative framework for major industrial projects that have enormous economic and job creation opportunities.

The slide shows a few examples, and we'll elaborate, of course, in our dialogue.

The next major area of activity is socio-economic policies. This is a fairly comprehensive suite of socio-economic policies and programs that are very much a suite of provincial-like programs that have effect in the first nations world, in first nation and Inuit communities.

These programs are highly devolved. There is not a great level of INAC immediate involvement in the delivery of these programs. The relationship is one of usually multi-year funding agreements with broad criteria and broad requirements that see the transfer of funds under the various program elements to first nations, who in turn implement the programming, be it in education or in various social areas.

We talk in this slide about education, both elementary and secondary, on reserve; programming that addresses approximately 120,000 on-reserve first nation learners in elementary and secondary education. Some 60% of them study on reserve and about 40% pursue their secondary and/or elementary education off reserve. The department provides the funding for that education. There are varying formulae across the country, but in general parents who choose to see reserve-resident children study off reserve have the prerogative to choose education off reserve, and the programming resources are transferred by various means to the provinces to cover those tuition costs.

Post-secondary education is another area of programming for first nation and Inuit people--about $300 million a year in post-secondary support, about $1.2 billion in primary and secondary support. The post-secondary education supports some 25,000 students in various post-secondary education endeavours. There is also programming that supports the promotion and preservation of culture and languages.

The next large block of activity is support for community infrastructure: programming that supports public works types of services, such as housing, water and sewer, roads, bridges; and capital projects like school buildings and public administration offices, etc.

Social programs are also part of this suite for on-reserve residents. The programs run the gamut: income assistance; child and family services; assisted living for those in need of assisted living care, either in institutions, homes for the elderly who need care, or for individuals who require care in their own home; and there's a program for prevention of family violence. In most cases, these programs are delivered by first nation service delivery organizations for on-reserve services, and in some cases the services are delivered by the provincial service provider. In either case, whether it's first nation delivered or provincially delivered, the services are overseen and licensed, in terms of standard provision, by the province.

There's a suite of economic development program supports that supports a wide spectrum of economic activity, both in the north and in communities in the south. There is economic development programming that supports in-community community development offices. So there are community development officers for economic development in virtually all the first nations that are supported by this programming. And there is programming that supports, on a project basis, proposals for economic development in communities, very often linked to the natural resources opportunities. But there is a whole gamut of community economic building.

The elements I mentioned earlier about the First Nations Land Management Act and the first nations industrial project act providing the legislative framework for industrial projects are also, we consider, major structural innovations that are essential to significant economic development.

The northern affairs portion of the department occupies the lead in the federal family in managing federal interests in the north. It's a very broad mandate. It includes the development of federal northern policy and coordination of federal activities--coordination with other departments, boards, and agencies. Our northern affairs program supports federal and territorial relations. Our minister plays a significant role with territorial premiers. We support research in the science that's necessary to guide the activities of lands and resource management in the north. And we play the federal lead in the area of circumpolar activities, which really means partnering and cooperating with those other countries that have circumpolar interests to harmonize policy and to share information for international cooperation.

In the Northwest Territories and in Nunavut, the department is responsible for province-like land and resource management. In the Yukon, this responsibility for land and resource management has been devolved to the Yukon government. It was devolved in 2003. Discussions are under way now for the devolution of this responsibility to the Northwest Territory, and we hope to be in similar negotiations with Nunavut before too long.

This branch also assists northerners in developing political and economic institutions that enable them to assume increasing responsibility within the Canadian federation. A few examples are the development of the Nunavut Planning Commission, the Nunavut Water Board, the Nunavut Surface Rights Tribunal, and, in the Northwest Territories, the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Board.

The office of the federal interlocutor provides direct liaison between the Government of Canada and Métis and non-status Indian organizations. This office established bilateral relations between the Government of Canada and the national Métis and non-status Indian organizations. It has a mandate for tripartite self-government processes with off-reserve aboriginal groups and the provinces. Its minister is an advocate of Métis and non-status Indians and urban aboriginal peoples issues within cabinet. The office takes practical steps to improve the life chances of Métis and non-status Indians, urban aboriginal people, for example, through the implementation of the urban aboriginal strategy, a piece of programming that seeks to cooperate with other jurisdictions to develop a relevant program for Métis and aboriginal people off reserve. The office is also a principal player in implementing the Government of Canada's response to the Supreme Court of Canada's Pawley decision, recognizing Métis rights.

The next few slides give an aperçu of the resources of the department involved in these major areas of activity. In terms of planned spending for 2006-07, there's an approximate $6.3 billion programmed for the department, laid out as you see it there. The big chunk of that pie, the people, $3 billion and a bit, covers main areas like education, at approximately $1.6 billion; social programs, at approximately $1.3 billion; and then a variety of lower-cost endeavours, such as estate planning, estate management, and managing individual moneys. In the north, the north food mail program is part of this chunk of programming, as well as resources for hospital and physician services in the north.

The next largest, at about $2 billion, the blue slice, the economy, includes moneys for the settlement of claims. Once they're negotiated and a settlement has been determined, the settlement amount is in this category, currently estimated at probably $400 million or $500 million. There is also a slice here for the economic development programming that I talked about. The annual economic development programming is about $100 million annually. The housing dollars are in this portion as well, which we refer to as the economy, as are the capital investments made on reserve--building of schools, building of houses, building of band administration buildings, roads, bridges, etc.

The next largest chunk, the government, at $865 million, covers the cost of the process of claims in self-government negotiations: the cost to the government for these negotiations and the cost to aboriginal parties in the negotiation processes. This includes any support to governance in first nations and to governance-type institutions, the institutions that support the building of governance.

The land, at $280 million, includes work in the area of reserve creation--any addition to reserves that takes place as a result of claims work, for instance. It also covers land and resource management south of 60 and in the north--it's a big activity in the north--and it also includes work on contaminated sites remediation.

The department employs about 4,200 people. It is rather extensively decentralized; 57% of the workforce is outside the national capital region, working in all of the regions of Canada, which cover the 10 provinces and the territories, and about 30% of the workforce, some 1,300 people, are aboriginal employees. It's a very robust number, but the department wishes to exceed the number by a considerable amount. We continue to work on increasing that representation.

The last slide shows a visual image of the structure of the organization. Of course, the department is headed by a deputy minister and two associates. The next line shows the assistant deputy minister complement, a number of whom are here today. I didn't talk about each of the boxes in the presentation. I didn't mention corporate services, of course, but the department has a robust and complete corporate services component for finance, administration, information management, etc.

I should mention that there is an executive director of Inuit relations. This is a new secretariat in the department. I believe it's just under two years old, and it was created to facilitate dialogue with the Inuit population in the department, to improve the entry of communication, and to facilitate relations between the headquarters component of the department and the Inuit people. It's early in its development. It's a small secretariat of about a dozen or so people now. It may grow a little, but we believe it has proven very instrumental in improving relations and communications with Inuit people.

That's a very broad overview. I expect it raises more questions than it answers, but we didn't feel we could hope to address all the possible questions in the presentation. We wanted to provide an overview and spend the majority of our time addressing your questions and points of interest.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Merci.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Thank you.

Are there any questions from the committee members?

Mr. Lévesque.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Yvon Lévesque Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

Mr. LeBlanc, thank you for your presentation.

You talked about the provision of food, that is, the Food Mail Program. Do you manage both programs, the basic program and the pilot program that was established for three villages? Under that program, the price went down to 30¢ a kilo.

3:50 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Socio-economic Policy and Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Paul LeBlanc

I believe so. My colleague, Mary Quinn, from the Northern Affairs Program, tells me that this is the case.

Mary, would you like to give more details?

3:55 p.m.

Mary Quinn Director General, Strategic Policy and Devolution Branch, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

The department is responsible for the food mail program, and there's a reduced rate through that program for priority perishable foods, other foods, and other essential items to remote communities where there's no road access.

Over the past three years or so, we've been conducting what we refer to as pilot projects in three communities, in Kugaaruk, Kangiqsujauq, and Fort Severn, to test and get some evidence from a further reduced rate and from increased activities to promote nutrition awareness. We are reviewing the results of these pilots, and we hope these results will inform the next steps we take in terms of the program.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Yvon Lévesque Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

Were effectiveness studies from a health perspective carried out as part of the pilot project? Do you have findings about the impact of the program?

3:55 p.m.

Director General, Strategic Policy and Devolution Branch, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Mary Quinn

Yes. They are in the process of analyzing the project results.

As you say, there is an impact on the effect of the reduced rate on purchasing, but also on people's health and the kinds of foods they're buying. The results have been reviewed by a peer review group of nutritionists. I don't have the results with me to say exactly what the impact is in each area, but we will, at an appropriate time, be releasing the reports on those results.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Yvon Lévesque Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

Merci.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Madam Neville, go ahead, please.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

And thank you very much for coming and simplifying a rather complex department.

There are two areas that I want to ask some questions on. I have a whole host of questions, but I'll start with two. You talk about the suite of economic development initiatives under lands and trusts services: the First Nations Land Management Act, the First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management Act, etc. Could you expand a little bit on where they are? Has the statistics institute been established? And where are we with the implementation of these acts?

3:55 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Socio-economic Policy and Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Paul LeBlanc

Warren Johnson is the assistant deputy minister responsible for lands and trusts.

3:55 p.m.

Warren Johnson Assistant Deputy Minister, Lands and Trust Services, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Mr. Chairman, to respond to that question, the major initiatives in this category are the First Nations Land Management Act, an act that was passed some time ago--in 1999, I think--and that was, a number of years ago, expanded to apply to more than the original 14 first nations who had championed that initiative. There are now a large number of first nations moving through the process of developing their own land management codes, moving up from underneath the Indian Act and moving into a sectoral self-government arrangement on land. So that's fully operational. There are now some 17 first nations operational under that, as well as 28 or 29 in the development stage. That's the First Nations Land Management Act.

The First Nations Fiscal and Statistical Management Act was passed in the last Parliament. It came into force within a day or two of April 1--don't quote me on that--right at the beginning of this fiscal year. The processes are unfolding now in terms of the appointment of the boards and the process that will have to unfold this year in terms of selection of the key people, for example, the chief statistician for the statistical institute, etc.

That act--I will just remind the committee--established four institutions: a financial management board, a tax authority, a borrowing authority, and a statistical institute. There's a fairly complex process of getting these institutions up and running. I think the plan, by and large, is to have the institutions up this fall. That process is unfolding. One of them is operational, in the sense of the borrowing. That's a private corporation, and it is already, I think, involved in activities. And there are a number of first nations that are all putting their requests forward to become part of this initiative when it gets up and running later this year.

The other major activity under this theme is the First Nations Oil and Gas and Moneys Management Act, another first-nations-led initiative that was passed in the last Parliament and came into force April 1 of this year. Work is now ongoing with the three pilot first nations who led that initiative, to help them develop their land management codes and processes so they can take over their responsibilities, specifically with respect to oil and gas and the management of Indian moneys that would otherwise be held by the Canadian federal government in the consolidated revenue fund. While they are developing their own codes, they're working with us in piloting the process that other first nations who might want to take advantage of that initiative would then use subsequent to this year. So in a sense we're piloting the implementation with the first three first nations who championed that. We hope they plan to go to their communities for ratification towards the end of this year in terms of getting their own regimes fully in place. And that would leave us potentially open to other first nations interested in that initiative next fiscal year, about a year from now. Those are the three initiatives, those three self-government pieces.

The last recent initiative here is more of a stewardship piece, but it's in response to and was developed with first nations and a number of first nations champions. That's the First Nations Commercial and Industrial Development Act. It is also now in force. The work is ongoing on an urgent basis with the major regulations under that. The priority is with one of the first nations who in fact championed it--Fort McKay--because they're in the middle as a result of a specific claim settlement regarding a major tar sands development project with Shell in northern Alberta. That requires the kind of complex regulatory regime that this act was put in place to, as my colleague mentioned, allow the federal government to uphold.

So that's a quick run-through of the status of those pieces. I hope that answers your question.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

I have just a quick follow-up on this.

Under the Fiscal and Statistical Management Act, what is the status of the boards that are being established? Have they been established?

4 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Lands and Trust Services, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Warren Johnson

There are advisory panels in place that were nominated by the first nations who were involved in championing those initiatives over the last several years. The process of advertising for and selecting board members, and then subsequently selecting the senior operating positions--the chief statistician, CEO, etc., depending on the institution--will flow through the normal appointment and selection process between now and hopefully this fall. By then we'd like to have all the boards up and running and becoming operational, selecting their major operating staff, etc.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Thank you.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Madam Crowder.

4 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Thank you for your presentation today.

I've got two questions. I'm going to ask them both because they're in two separate areas.

One is on indigenous children in care. A recent report came out of British Columbia on the B.C. children and youth review by the Honourable Ted Hughes. In his report, he specifically indicated that the federal government funding for reserve-based child welfare services was developed at a time when there was not as much emphasis on prevention as there is today. Calculated largely on the basis of the number of children taken into care, it provides little or no funding for the kinds of family support services.

As well, I understand that the first nations child and family services agencies have long said--and I believe the department has acknowledged--there is a discrepancy in the funding between what many provinces provide and what the federal government provides. So I'd like you to talk about what the federal government is doing about that.

The second question is around specific land claims. You may not be able to provide this information today, but I would be interested in knowing how many claims are presently in the department system, the average number of new claims that have been filed in the last three years, and the number of claims that have been settled in the last three years. So that's some really specific information that you may or may not have.

I am also curious about whether it's an urban legend or actually true that a number of first nations that are in various stages of negotiations have indicated that they need to borrow significant funds in order to settle either treaties or land claims. Many of these land claims drag on for a number of years, which often leads people to not be in the position to actually take advantage of whatever settlement there might be. So I just wonder if you'd comment on whether that is common practice.

4:05 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Socio-economic Policy and Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Paul LeBlanc

Thank you.

Perhaps I could offer a few comments on the first point.

You're quite correct that the first nations service providers in child care would put additional resources to good use if they were there, and they've voiced an interest in additional resources.

I should say that Budget 2005 brought an increase in resources of some $25 million annually, directly in response to this need you're pointing out. That's a strong positive factor in the years going forward. That will be in play this year and in the coming five-year period.

The department is in the process of reviewing these programs in terms of their policy framework. Their current authorities have come to a conclusion. There is a transition year where we had the last year--this current year--of authority for the policy sweep. In reviewing these policy authorities, we would certainly have to look at whether it is the right kind of intervention and whether the programming is sufficiently modernized in terms of prevention and the kinds of interventions that are called for. There will be an ongoing review in terms of the policy framework.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

How long will that take? I ask that because, as you know, aboriginal children are significantly over-represented in care.

4:05 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Socio-economic Policy and Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Paul LeBlanc

That work will be completed in this fiscal year. In fact, for the updated programs to be in place with the necessary authorities, it will be at the outset of the very next fiscal year.

We may have to get back to you on some of the questions, but we do have some information.

Audrey Stewart, I don't know if you want to take part in this.

4:05 p.m.

Audrey Stewart Director General, Specific Claims Branch, Claims and Indian Government Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We do have some numbers that I think address certain of your questions. First of all, how many specific claims--and I'll say this information is available on the departmental website and is updated quarterly. We can provide updates, if that would be helpful to you, from time to time. The total number of claims, either under review or under negotiation, was 748 as of the end of December. These numbers will be updated within the next two or three weeks to the end of the fiscal year.

Over the last three years, we have received approximately 60 claims per year. The number that I'm afraid I don't have is how many have been settled in each of the last three years.

Yes, the department does have a program to provide negotiation loan funding to enable first nations to participate fully in the negotiations, as some of the negotiations, particularly for the comprehensive claims, can last for many years. They're very complex negotiations with a great range of subjects to be covered and many difficult arrangements to be worked out. They do, indeed, last many years, so certain participating first nations do find that their loans become fairly large.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

What's the average length of times...? Sorry.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

I want to guide the committee. I thought the direction that was given to the clerk and the chair was to speak to the department about priorities. We're talking about specifics now. What is the pleasure of the committee? If you want to talk about specifics, that's fine with me. But we wanted to know what the priorities of the ministry were, because that's where we're headed next.

Am I not correct on that, Mr. Clerk?

We'll finish up with this question, but let's try to talk about priorities rather than talking about specifics right now. I think those things can be addressed as we get onto our priorities. Is that the pleasure of the committee?

4:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.