Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on June 5th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

I open the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development meeting of Monday, June 5, 2006.

Committee members, you have the orders of the day in front of you. Today we'll have witnesses and a brief on education of aboriginal people. The witnesses are from the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. We have Mr. Paul LeBlanc, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Socio-economic Policy and Regional Operations; Line Paré, Director General of the Education Branch, Socio-economic Policy and Regional Operations; Fred Caron, Assistant Deputy Minister, Office of the Federal Interlocutor for Métis and Non-Status Indians; and Mary Tobin Oates, Senior Adviser in the Inuit Relations Secretariat. Welcome to the meeting. Thank you very much for your attendance.

We'll be having a briefing.

Mr. LeBlanc, would you mind leading off?

Thank you.

[Paul LeBlanc, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Socio-economic Policy and Regional Operations, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Thank you, Chairman.

I trust members have a copy of a briefing deck that was available. Has it been circulated? There should be copies for members.

The deck contains the broad areas that we'd like to present to committee. On behalf of my colleagues, I will provide a brief overview of the deck that we'll be looking at together for perhaps eight to ten minutes maximum, and I would ask Monsieur Caron to add a few comments from the perspective of the Office of the Federal Interlocutor. Then my colleagues and I would be pleased to spend the majority of the time allotted to entertain questions and comments of the committee members, Mr. Chairman, if that's appropriate.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Thank you for that.

I would just like to mention to the committee that we will go until 5 and then have an in camera meeting from 5 to 5:30 to discuss further witnesses, as it looks like the House will be sitting longer than we anticipated, so there will be an opportunity to hear more witnesses. I want to go over a list of witnesses and have some discussions on which direction we want to take as our first priority. Is that a reasonable request for the committee?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Okay, thank you.

Mr. LeBlanc, go ahead, please.

[Paul LeBlanc]

Perhaps before starting into the deck I might briefly add that our deputy minister, Michael Wernick, asked me to pass on that he has invited officials of the department to support the committee's work in any way possible.

We are working on some briefing material in addition to the deck that you see here, and you may well deem to request specific briefing material, which we will endeavour to provide with the briefest possible delay. Staff are working on bibliographies and reference materials that we hope could be helpful to the committee's reflection as you continue your work on education, because we know the committee has expressed a particular interest in education and it's of course an important field.

With that, I'll try to move quickly through the deck.

Page 2 makes a simple point that you've seen when our colleagues presented their deck on the demographics of aboriginal people in Canada: a very young population, 50% below the age of 25, and a population that's very strongly emphasized off reserve, with 71% of aboriginal-identified population not on reserve.

This is particularly relevant for education. The heavy youthful demographic makes education all the more important a priority and all the more important a challenge both on and off reserve.

INAC's primary focus is first nation education on reserve, but there are very strong links to off-reserve education. Our primary interest in programs focuses on education for first nations residents on reserve, whether they get that education on or off reserve. So a lot of our programming supports first nations residents who are studying in provincial schools in neighbouring communities, and we'll elaborate on that as we go through.

Education outcomes are improving. We've seen some steady improvement over the last 10 or 20 years, but there are important gaps still. A few key indicators show that, in the 2001 census, 44% of aboriginal people 15 years and older had not completed high school, compared to 31% of the population in general. Of aboriginal people 15 years and older, 5% had a university degree at the time of the 2001 census compared to 16% for the Canadian population.

In the area of post-secondary certificate, diploma, or trade certification, the gap has indeed narrowed, with 27% completion for aboriginal people compared to 28% for the Canadian population. The government is of course committed to further improving aboriginal education outcomes as this is a key to eliminating social and economic gaps.

The area of education outcomes was of course one of the major priorities of consensus that came from the meeting of federal, provincial, and territorial leaders and national aboriginal leaders in Kelowna in the fall of last year.

Page 4 touches on the overall roles and responsibilities. The department provides first nations and Inuit education programs in such areas as support for elementary and secondary education of status Indians living on reserve, whether they are studying on reserve in on-reserve schools or whether they are pursuing their education in provincial schools in neighbouring localities.

Financial support is provided to first nations and Inuit students for the pursuit of post-secondary education, and there are also programs that promote labour market participation and developing job skills for first nations and Inuit youth through the first nations and Inuit youth employment strategy.

There are programs that support and promote cultural heritage and languages as well, through a network of cultural education centre programs. I'll elaborate a little more later on.

INAC, through the federal interlocutor, works with aboriginal organizations, as well as with provincial governments where appropriate, to find practical solutions to improve the life chances of Métis, non-status Indians, and urban aboriginal people by developing stronger relationships, playing a role of advocacy, and developing partnership programs. Monsieur Caron will elaborate a bit in a few minutes.

Page 5 indicates that since 1980, programs for the approximately 120,000 first nations elementary and secondary students have been largely devolved to first nations communities in favour of local control over education.

The time has long since past when INAC delivered very elaborate education programs or staff to provide education, or when it managed schools or hired teachers. By and large, it has funding agreements with first nations that draw the broad parameters and objectives--

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Chairman, thanks to this little machine, we have just been informed that there will be a vote in 30 minutes. The bells are ringing. Can someone check? It would be important for us to know. What are we going to do?

[Paul LeBlanc]

Can we continue until 4 o'clock, then?

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

As soon as we get some notice through the whip....

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

We've just been advised it's at 4:10 p.m.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Okay, we'll have to leave, at least, by five minutes to four. Is that all right?

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Thank you.

Mr. LeBlanc.

[Paul LeBlanc]

Okay.

Again, it is heavily characterized by devolution to first nations management.

The majority of first nations elementary and secondary students, some 60%, attend approximately 500 first-nations-run schools on reserve. So about 60% of first nations students are in schools in their on-reserve communities, and about 38% to 39%--just about 40%--attend schools in the provincial system, as do, of course, a great number of aboriginal people who reside off reserve.

I should mention that the programs the department is funding support the tuition costs for first nations students in on-reserve schools and support the tuition costs for first nations on-reserve students who study in provincial schools. As I said, we no longer play a direct role in education delivery. About 1.4% of students attend seven schools that remain under the direct administration of the department.

First nations and Inuit, or their administering organizations, deliver INAC post-secondary student support, distributing and reporting on funds allocated to eligible students.

On page 6 there is a little more about the specifics and the funding of those programs. There is $1.1 billion annually to support students living on reserve. As you see in the breakdown, the majority of that is for the core elementary-secondary costs. There is $101 million for special education, which involves discerning students' unique learning challenges and correcting them or helping students to rise to them as early in life as possible.

There is $40 million for something called the New Paths for Education initiative. This is a supplementary program that allows first nations to develop success opportunities that meet their particular needs. It could be for more involvement of parents in schools. It could involve particular curriculum development. It could involve introducing better technology, and so on. There is a large array of options for enhancing education capacity.

And there is $8.5 million for the network of 111 cultural education centres across the country.

Post-secondary education programs provide approximately $300 million annually to support 25,000 post-secondary first nations and Inuit learners across Canada.

The Indian and Northern Affairs Canada education branch also administers the first nations and Inuit youth employment strategy, which has a budget of $24 million.

On pages 7, 8, and 9 we describe work that's currently under way under a heading we refer to as a renovated education action plan. The department, in strong consultation and strong partnership with first nations, primarily through the Assembly of First Nations, is working on a new education action plan, the objective of which is to see a revamped education policy framework—you may want to move to page 9, where it's best described—that would redevelop the principles, better define the roles and responsibilities, and clearly define the goals, strategies, and expected outcomes. And we will do this in agreement with first nations and in a way that will give us a policy suite that clearly and best reflects the ambitions and interests of aboriginal people. We work with an AFN/INAC steering committee on this goal.

Accompanying the policy framework will be a comprehensive management framework. The management framework will cover all aspects of managing the resources and program results. So it will cover how to describe objectives, how to measure outcomes, how to report on outcomes, how to eliminate unnecessary reports, how to agree on what reports are important, and how to have an effective management, accountability, and measurement system that works for first nations and that answers the requirements of the first nations and the Government of Canada.

That education action plan, with these major components, is scheduled for completion early in 2007. The work is under way now. There will be milestones all the way through. The department will look forward to reporting to you at committee as major milestones are met.

With respect to on-reserve first nations education, our minister touched on this point when he met with committee last week. He talked about the absence of a legislative framework for first nations education. He described it as something that's essential, that should be pursued on a priority basis.

Since 1995, self-government negotiations have resulted in recognition of first nations jurisdiction over education in various ways. Jurisdiction, the full transfer of responsibility, has been achieved where full self-government has been achieved. Where a fully self-governing first nation like the Nisga'a have come about, education is a component where the first nation has jurisdiction and manages its affairs. In other words, it is removed from the Indian Act.

The Indian Act is very sparse in terms of its legislative help in the area of first nations education. Another example of how this has been responded to is something called the Mi'kmaq education agreement. In Nova Scotia, first nations have come together. The federal government has passed legislation that effectively transfers jurisdiction to the first nations in Nova Scotia that have partnered under this agreement. At the same time, the Province of Nova Scotia passed legislation recognizing the first nations jurisdiction over education. So where there's this traditional constitutional provincial responsibility, notwithstanding that it's not interpreted to apply in the first nations context, they have recognized through legislation...and entered into cooperative arrangements with the first nations in Nova Scotia.

With this jurisdiction, the legal jurisdiction, the first nations in Nova Scotia have come together to create a school-board-type entity in which they, in turn, vest the authority the legislation has given to the individual first nations. They now have a school board system with strong links to the provincial system, and they have full jurisdiction over education.

These are examples of areas that we think are very important to continue to explore to bring legislative certainty to the education rights and privileges of first nations people and aboriginals, and also to better align responsibility with where control really is. As the minister mentioned a few days ago, in the system we have now, the education file has devolved. The control rests with first nations. The minister and the department have relatively little control; yet, technically and legally speaking, the minister remains responsible under the Indian Act.

With respect to aboriginal learners and provincial and territorial education systems, provincial and territorial legislatures have exclusive legislation over education, except on reserve. About four out of five aboriginal learners attend either provincial or territorial educational institutions. As I mentioned earlier in terms of the fall first ministers event, provinces and territories are very much willing to work with the Government of Canada to improve outcomes among all aboriginal learners on and off reserve.

While they have control and manage education in their communities, many first nations leaders have a high number of their residents studying off reserve. They are interested in working increasingly with the provinces, so the provincial education system better serves first nations students studying off reserve.

The provincial system has a great deal to offer first nations in developing the systems components of their education that are now underdeveloped, and first nations are interested in those partnerships. Of course, first nations are interested in pursuing that in a way that does not compromise their jurisdiction, does not compromise their ambition for jurisdiction in what they see, I believe, as an important imperative in having a great deal of say about the educational outcomes of their young people.

In concluding, if today's aboriginal children and youth—more than 315,000 of them—can succeed in education, they will be empowered with choice and self-reliance and they will make a full contribution to the economic prosperity of Canada. Increasingly, with human resource shortages, as the fastest-growing demographic, aboriginal young people will have an increasingly important role to play in the mainstream of economics and the economic prosperity of the country. Governments, aboriginal leaders, learning institutions, and educators are ready to work together in support of fundamental change in aboriginal education.

On that, I thank you. If I have any time left, I will give the floor to my colleague Mr. Caron.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

I think we need to leave for the vote. I understand it's just one vote, and I have been assured by Mr. Préfontaine that it only takes 20 minutes. I think we should adjourn for the vote and then come back.

Would the witnesses be willing to stay until we return? If there is any delay past 4:30 p.m., we will advise and tell you of that.

Mr. Lemay.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

That being said, Mr. Chairman, since our witnesses are going to stay, could we postpone the in-camera meeting until Wednesday? That way, we could make up the 30 minutes, and it would mean that these key people, especially Mr. LeBlanc who has been coming to our committee for two weeks and who despairs of ever being able to go back to his office to work, won't be required to come back a second or a third time.

What do you think about that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

I think it's a good suggestion. We have two witnesses on Wednesday, so whether or not we would have time to do it then, I don't know. How about we just see how it goes, how many questions we have, and if we do have maybe even just 15 minutes to talk about future witnesses...?

I'll suspend the meeting.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

I'd like to commence the meeting, please. I would like to thank the witnesses for their patience. Thank you very much for indulging us the time to go and vote.

I think we're going to hear from Mr. Fred Caron now. Is that correct?

Go ahead, if you would, Mr. Caron.

[Fred Caron, Assistant Deputy Minister, Office of the Federal Interlocutor for Métis and Non-Status Indians, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I'll add, just very briefly, to what my colleague, Mr. LeBlanc, has said.

As he mentioned, the primary role of the department has been with respect to on-reserve education, given its responsibilities for activities on reserve. Off reserve, the provincial governments are the administrators of the education system, so the department doesn't have any direct program role at this point in off-reserve education.

But as Mr. LeBlanc mentioned, there is a very important percentage of aboriginal people who live off reserve, in cities in particular, whose educational outcomes are equally important I think to making progress on the aboriginal file overall and whose statistics are relatively similar to those of the aboriginal students on reserve. So provinces, in particular over the past year or two, have expressed an increasing interest in trying to work with the federal government, within provincial systems. The thinking is not of duplicating the on-reserve system off reserve, but rather of working with provinces to try to improve areas in which the federal government can help education outcomes for aboriginal learners off reserve.

There are a number of important best practices that provinces have developed. It's an area of increasing interest to them in terms of the role that aboriginal people in particular can play in provincial economies. So I think there are some promising initiatives that are being considered, some of which are in place in the off-reserve situation.

We're certainly giving some consideration to ways in which the federal government may be able to help. That's pretty well where we are on that aspect.

I should just say, in terms of the role of my office, for those who may not be familiar with it, that the minister actually wears two hats. He's Minister of Indian Affairs and he's federal interlocutor. The interlocutor role was developed in the mid-eighties, as a point of entry into the federal government for Métis, non-status people, but obviously, it didn't become a full department with program funding and so on. This is a little bit of context of the role that my office plays.

I'll stop there because I'm sure the members will want to ask questions, and I'll be happy to answer them. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Thank you, Mr. Caron.

We're going to have questions. To start the first round here, we have the Liberals. Who would like to speak on behalf of the Liberals?

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I guess it's me.

Gary, do you want to go ahead? I know you've got a lot of questions. You can come back to me next.

[Gary Merasty, Liberal, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Sure.

One of the comments you made, Mr. LeBlanc, was that the department has relatively little control. It's an issue that I think is perhaps a bit misleading in that the department has a really strict relationship with the first nations. Yes, the first nations on reserve do administer the program; however, there are programs and processes they have to go through to work with the department.

For example, to be more specific, provincial education systems have services like in the Saskatchewan context--community school funding, integrated services, SchoolPLUS, other administrative functions that support the school board head office, curriculum units, and certain other large ancillary services that provide significant support to the school, wherever it may be, in whatever town or city. When it comes to first nations funding, there is virtually an absence of funding in that area.

So I think it has to be looked at more closely in terms of the proper resourcing to support the programs at the first nations level.

I have just another quick example. When provinces make a change...for example, the behaviour disorder funding that was made available a few years ago. It took the department two or three years to catch up and provide that type of funding.

I guess the question is, how do you envision moving forward in providing the proper administrative and ancillary educational support comparable to what the provinces provide to their schools, and in having the department play more of a role or establishing a stronger regional or tribal council presence to support these community schools?

In regard to tribal council funding, under Prince Albert Grand Council, for example, there are 33 schools and 12 bands, but the tribal council funding formula only funds them at a maximum of five bands and 2% of the education budget. There are 33 schools and 12 bands, so there's a bit of a disparity.

So relatively little control I think is a bit of a misnomer. I think there needs to be a lot more reality there in looking at what needs to happen.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Mr. LeBlanc.

[Paul LeBlanc]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

There are many aspects to that question.

To start with, in my reference to “relatively little control”, I was referring primarily to who plays the primary role of actual delivery of the education service in first nations. I take the member's point about important points of contact in the partnership that are very meaningful to the relationship and where the department still has an important role to play. And of course funding is one of them.

I referred to the education action plan as part of the policy review and all of that. There were some other parts I didn't elaborate on, but there is, at the same time, between now and spring 2007, a review going on regarding all the basics of funding formulas--for example, what is the driving logic of the funding formula; what would be the options to the existing funding formula; are there options that are more equitable, that are more effective, that get to the need better? That's an important one.

To be able to do the reflection on what the right funding formula is, of course, you need to have good information on comparable costs, so the action plan includes sponsoring and conducting research on teacher salary comparative costs, tuition costs per student. How much does the aboriginal first nations educational system cost compared to the provincial costs? That will be important in making the compelling, definitive cases about whether or not the funding is right, whether it's where it should be, and what the arguments are about funding.

The other aspect that I think is relevant to your areas of inquiry is this whole issue of legislation. Funding now is program funding--essentially discretionary program funding. One of the issues we believe would be contemplated in this review of legislative options would be tying funding more closely to a legislative outcome, linking it to legislative obligation--a statutory profiling of funding--as opposed to more discretionary funding on a program basis.

So we're hoping to bring all of these aspects into focus between now and 2007 in this work on the action plan and on the legislative options as well.

[Gary Merasty, Liberal, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

There has virtually been a cap on funding their growth.

The nominal role process is somewhat cumbersome when it comes to the issue of first nations on reserve. The first nations have repeatedly stated they're not held to the same accountability or the same measures that provinces are. If schools off reserve take first nations students, the department automatically pays the provincial school, without an audit, whereas first nations schools are audited on September 30. If the students are not in their seats or don't have a steady pattern of attendance, they're not part of that nominal role.

How can we improve the situation, as we go forward and focus more on the funding part, so that it's more sustainable long term and addresses some of the real issues at the community level?