Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 6th, 2008

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

So then in any given year, if the money isn't used, it would be rolled into next year's, and $250 million would be added to that. Is that clear? Are we not clear about that?

[Sylvia Duquette]

No. This is something that we're still identifying, so we don't have an answer for that today, but there will be $250 million available every year. That amount will be reviewed some years hence. There are the installment payments too, so the fund can be controlled in that way.

Maybe, in a more practical sense, we're talking about large claims. More than 50% of the claims are probably under $3 million, so that gives you a little appreciation of how many claims can go through with that amount.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I understood from your comments, Minister, that because of the fact that you are able to pay this in installments with interest, we certainly have control over how quickly those funds would be expended, and there is adequate cash there, in your opinion, to deal with them.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

I believe so. We'll see, and that's why we have the five-year review, but that gives us a lot of ability to manage that and to make sure we use all the money that's available to us. If we have to cash-manage in order to do it, there are ways to make that happen.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thanks. I'll pass it on to my colleague for a minute, if he wants.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Well, I'd rather have five minutes.

Thank you very much, Minister.

Could you give us some feedback as to the reaction you've received, in particular from Chief Fontaine and the AFN, and maybe some of the timelines that you see this legislation moving forward in--as both of you see it moving forward?

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Very quickly, there were ongoing discussions to put this all together with the task force and lots of input throughout. We did have a ceremony here across the road to announce the legislation, when it was finally all put together. Chief Fontaine participated in that, as did many other elders and chiefs who have been either part of the process or had dreamed of this day, I guess. There is a big degree of support, as there was at the Assembly of First Nations assembly that they had here in Ottawa a short while ago, where they passed motions in support of it. I'm sure you'll have them as witnesses as well, but my sense is that there is broad support for the bill.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

That concludes this round. Mr. Storseth, you're probably up in the next round.

Mr. Minister, it is 4:33 and you had agreed to be here until 4:30. We were ten minutes late getting started. I don't know your timeline, whether you need to leave at this moment or whether you can stay with us a few more minutes.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

I think I'm fine for another ten or fifteen minutes, if you wish.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Okay.

Monsieur Lévesque, you are next, for a five-minute round, please.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you for your patience.

I would like to talk about clause 16. If I understand it correctly, it is still up to the Minister to decide whether a claim will be negotiated or not. He has three years to make his decision. If the answer is yes, he can take three more years to complete the negotiations.

How was the timetable that provides for the times before access to the tribunal is allowed decided? Do the time limits provided mean that a claimant whose claim is determined to be valid will not be able to apply to the tribunal, or might not be able to do so, without the Minister's consent, for six years after filing the claim with the Minister? Do you believe these time limits are going to improve the current process significantly?

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Of course, I do think it will improve it. It's three years for each of the stages, and that gives time for first nations to develop their case and put it all together and submit it. Once it's accepted, then there is a three-year process to get it to the next stage. So it does set some timelines in place, and it does allow it to move through the system.

I just want to reinforce that the hope is that most of the claims will be negotiated anyway. It's not our hope to flood the tribunal with cases. Our hope is to accelerate the number of cases and the speed in which we negotiate, as well. That is achieved by committing resources, by grouping common claims, by doing, where possible, common research and working with first nations to get their claims in as quickly as possible. So there are other things we can do to help accelerate it, but if they choose, at their discretion, they can send it in to the tribunal.

There is a certain minimum standard in the application. You can't just write a letter saying “I'd like to have a claim”. There's a certain minimum standard of information that must be in the application, and what a successful application consists of has been developed over a course of time. You have to have historic facts. You have to have band council resolutions. You have to have a bunch of things in the documentation, and it is up to us to help make sure that, when it is submitted, it is as complete as possible, because once it's submitted you can't just add information as time goes on. If that happens, it is another process to get that going, so you want to get it as complete as possible and submit it. We want to help make sure it is complete so that when the clock starts ticking it's actually a good, complete application.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Minister, do the 853 pending claims all affect the federal government?

Will this bill also apply to all federal government agencies? I am thinking, for example, of Fisheries and Oceans Canada, VIA Rail, the railways, and the ports. Are federal agencies for which there might also be specific claims affected by this bill?

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

I'd just say first, concerning the federal claims, that there are 800 claims. Not all of them will be successful. There are lots of claims, but not all of them are going to amount to an award, because whether they go to the tribunal or whether we negotiate them, at times we make an argument that some of the claims are not valid. That's part of the debate and negotiation and mediation sometimes, and in the tribunal's case it will also be a decision that they make.

As to who is covered, it's any specific claim that's covered under the definition in here. There are some opportunities for undertakings and different definitions in here; I think it's clearly spelled out what is covered under this.

Bob or Sylvia, do you want to add anything?

[Sylvia Duquette]

It is, and it's mostly to do with things under the purview of the Minister of Indian Affairs, because of course it's actions taken under the Indian Act and matters dealing with certain types of historic treaty rights—the definition is very clear in that regard—it's not about fish.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Thank you.

Mr. Storseth.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I should say right at the beginning that I have a couple of questions and will split my time with my colleague Mr. Warkentin.

Mr. Minister, in your mandate one of the things you talk about all the time is economic development and education for first nations communities. Can you tell me how this bill will help advance some of those priorities for our government as well?

All too often we get caught in the immediacy of what we're talking about. Could you take some time to explain and maybe give us a bit of your view of how this fits into your vision of structural reform within the system as well?

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

That is a big question, and certainly not all of it's covered in the bill. The bill is very specifically about specific claims.

But I think there's no question that many first nations see the settlement of their specific claim as part of the way out of their economic problems, or of taking advantage of economic opportunities.

For example, I was up in northern Saskatchewan the other day. We had an agreement on a $10 million deal with the Muskoday First Nation. They're delighted with the opportunities it's going to give their first nation. It's a well-run first nation—they have good governance and all those kinds of things—and now, in addition to all that they already do well, they have $10 million to look at opportunities, whether it's to buy land to add to the reserve or other opportunities. It's a pretty nice jump-start for them.

Depending on the specific claims—as has already been mentioned, many of them are quite small, as well—it's not as though it's a panacea, and I don't want to sell it as such. You might end up with, for example, a case where someone has had the corner of their property taken off. A first nation might say that no one had compensated it for that road allowance, and it's a legitimate claim.

They might only get, depending on circumstances, a couple of hundred thousand dollars for that land. Let's not pretend that's going to turn the nation around. On the other hand, it settles a grievance, which creates, I think, a different atmosphere because it's settled. And of course, any money they get is almost always useful for economic development; in that sense it will help it. But it's completely at the discretion of the first nation.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.

You mentioned something that you may not have the answer to but I'm sure your department has some insight into, and that's the size of the specific land claims. Do we have any idea, of the 800 that are out there, of roughly and proportionally the size of these things?

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

And it's important that they're not specific land claims. They're specific claims. Claims are generally, unfortunately, run together sometimes. But I have to say that they run the gamut right from small, medium, to large. And then there are a few of them, not many but a handful, that are bigger than this tribunal can handle and bigger than $150 million; and because they're so extensive and usually so complex, they're going to require a mandate from cabinet to drive that to conclusion. But in that 800, there will be everything from small, little $10,000 deals for interest lost or non-deliverance of some sort of a fund perhaps....

Let me just say, the longer we delay in getting this solved, as Mr. Albrecht has already pointed out, the more claims we're going to have. Because pretty soon you have claims about how we took too long to settle the claims. In other words, you get interest on your interest. That's why it's important to get this bill done so that we can get at those claims quickly so that we don't create other problems for ourselves, which would be about how we didn't solve these things in a timely fashion, because once that happens, it's another problem.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

What role will the provinces be playing in the tribunal process?

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

They won't play a role unless they want to. They won't play any role in the selection of the judges or the makeup of the tribunal at all. But if they decide they want to.... And there are always examples where almost every province will say on occasion: I have an obligation here as well, because fifty or one hundred years ago we should have allocated this land or we should have given this access to a resource or whatever, and we'd like to be part of this. And when they say that, we'll be delighted to include them. There's a process to have them added to the specific claims tribunal process. They have to specify in writing that they want to be part and they have to show how they're going to be bound by the decision. But in some ways, I think I would encourage the provinces to look at it. At times it will help solve the bigger issue all at once, and then we can all move on. First nations, province, the federal government can all move on together. And I would encourage the provinces to look at it, because I think--on occasion at least--this is a good opportunity for them to deal with it with finality so that we can all move on together.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Warkentin, you'll be in the next round.

Mr. Minister, thank you for being here today and for staying those extra minutes to let us get our full hour's worth from you.

I'm just going to suspend for one or two minutes when the minister leaves and then we'll continue with Ms. Crowder with the officials.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

We're back. We'll now continue with our second round. We have two more slots, and Ms. Crowder is next and then we'll just continue going until half past.

Ms. Crowder, you have five minutes.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I wanted to elaborate a little bit on the claims that are already in the system. I'm still not clear. My understanding of the practical effect of clause 42 is that it actually returns the clause 16 clock to zero for all claimants with active claims, irrespective of when those claims were submitted. I think that's an important point, because again, claims have been in the system for sometimes a couple of decades. I know that the process didn't start until 1993, but some of these claims have been hanging around for a long time.

I'm still not clear on the transitional procedures for existing claims. And tied into that, I'm still not convinced that simply a new dynamic, a different dynamic, will mean that the claims will be expedited. I think I need more information on exactly what it is that's going to expedite the process, other than grouping claims and shared research, because I think those, in and of themselves, simply will not expedite that process.

I wonder if you could tackle those two.