Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 25th, 2008

[Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Liberal, Nunavut, NU]

What do you feel would be an improvement? What would you like to see that would better take your concerns into consideration? What type of legislation were you looking for? We need to improve the process that we had before because of obvious reasons, and I think everyone agrees that it needs to be improved. What improvements are you looking for that would better address some of your concerns? I know you're worried about the one adjudicator listening to claims versus maybe a panel of them.

What are some of the things that you would like to see to improve this legislation?

[Debbie Abbott]

Again, more funding, less conflict, no cap on the claim, an adjudicative panel, and that reserve creation be included are really many of our concerns that we continue to stress. Without the necessary resources to do the proper work, communities are not able to move forward, and we really would like to see the resolution of claims so that they can improve the lifestyle of communities. I don't know if you're aware, but in British Columbia we have a very high rate of children in care, and that stems from poverty. If we're able to see resolution to claims, communities can move forward and start planning for a better future.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

You have about 20 seconds.

On the Conservative side, Mr. Albrecht.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to follow up for a moment on the issue of consultation. I was present in the summer in June when Minister Prentice and Chief Fontaine made the announcement of this new process, and it was clear to me at that point that there had been a lot of discussion prior to that event and a great degree of collaboration. There seemed to be agreement that this was the way to move ahead. Following that, there was a task force established in July to expedite the consultative process across Canada. In fact, if my information is correct, the first nations were given a significant amount of financial resources, $500,000, in order to help them carry out the consultation that was to occur.

My basic question is this. Was there adequate consultation at the regional level, whether that's provincial or even on a level beyond that, to help us as committee members to be assured that consultation occurred?

[Debbie Abbott]

From what I understand, the Assembly of First Nations received the funding, and I don't think there really was enough consultation in British Columbia. We attended one chiefs council meeting and were reminded that that forum was probably the only forum that we were going to have in consultation. We had hoped that there would be a series of forums within the region to accommodate consultation.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Could you comment at all on your perspective as to the composition of the task force that was put into place to do the consultation? Were there concerns in that regard?

[Debbie Abbott]

We did have Chief Atleo and Chief Ken Malloway as part of the task force, but the issue there is that they were not able to share with us the process they were in and the formulating of the legislation that was happening. They could not share publicly the work they were doing, the kinds of discussions they were involved in.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

You mentioned in your opening comments some of the problems with the existing way that specific claims are dealt with, and certainly I think we agree. You mentioned that Canada sits as judge and jury; there are no time constraints, so these claims drag on for an inordinate amount of time; and then there is the underfunding problem with the research that can be done. Certainly I think we agree that those are some issues that need to be addressed.

We have in front of us a proposed bill to begin to move ahead and address many of those issues, if not all of them. I would like to ask a very pointed question.

The process we have currently is obviously failing all of us--first nations and all Canadian people. The process that is outlined here for us, to me, appears to be a giant step forward. Is your group prepared to encourage us as committee members to move ahead with this, recognizing it's not perfect and never will be a perfect document? Should we at least move ahead and improve the system that we currently have, or are you prepared to say this is so bad that we should just continue with what we have and encourage this committee to defeat this legislation?

[Debbie Abbott]

I think it's a lot better than the existing one and I think it can be worked on with amendments.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

So you would encourage this committee to recommend moving ahead with this bill?

[Debbie Abbott]

With amendments, yes.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

You have 45 seconds.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

Perhaps I'll just defer to the next round.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

Monsieur Lévesque.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

You mentioned a little while ago that decisions were made unilaterally and without the consent of first nations when Bill C-30 was prepared.

On June 12, 2007, the prime minister and the national chief announced a new plan of action that would provide for discussions between government officials and leaders of the first nations. On July 25, the then minister, Jim Prentice, and chief Fontaine set up a Canada-AFN task force.

When he appeared on February 6, the present minister said he took into consideration its recommendations and previous critics found in the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples report, “Negotiation or confrontation: It’s Canada’s Choice”.

What is your opinion on the task force the minister mentioned in this report for the development of Bill C-30?

[Debbie Abbott]

I think the working group is fine. The issue we have is that they weren't able to consult with us. They weren't able to have our input into their process. They weren't able to vet the issues they were trying to address in the group.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

You talked about the selection of judges. In a way, if Bill C-30 provided the selection from a list made after consultations with first nations, it would certainly be difficult to appoint a judge from each province. But would you agree if a list was drawn up in consultation with you, a list of judges who could hear these claims?

[Debbie Abbott]

Yes, it would.

[Jody Woods]

If first nations had the same level of approval as Canada had of who was on that list.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Would the selection be made through the AFN or would you make it mandatory that the AFN consult with you?

[Jody Woods]

There have already been a number of instances where communities or organizations from across Canada have made recommendations about who should sit on the tribunal, so it could be as simple as setting up a process for how those recommendations are made.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Despite its shortcomings, could you go along with Bill C-30 if it passed as is? Would you be ready to work with Bill-30 as it stands now?

[Debbie Abbott]

We don't believe it would take care of the backlog in its current form. We will encourage amendments to see some significant progress to address the backlog.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

Thank you, Ms. Abbott.

And from the Conservative side.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

You suggested that there's a need for amendments, and you had a couple of concerns with regard to the bill. If it's all right with you, I just want to go through those specific concerns that I've identified. You can just tell me if indeed these are the sticking points for you.

In terms of the judicial independence, you expressed some concern with regard to that. My understanding is that these judges will be selected from within the Superior Court system—these are Superior Court justices—and that the recommendation for these judges to become judges within this process would be a recommendation from the justice department along with the Assembly of First Nations.

I'm just wondering if you believe this process, with these judges already serving in a capacity of maximum independence currently from the government, and then of course with the government not making the appointments, but the AFN, along with the justice department...do you feel that provides enough assurance that these judges will be independent?