Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 3rd, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Thank you.

My apologies to Mr. Storseth. He was supposed to be next, and I skipped over him, but we'll put you in there now, Mr. Storseth.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses very much for coming forward today. It was an excellent presentation. I do have some questions for you.

To begin with, I'd just like to clarify in my own mind exactly the community or the areas you represent in Manitoba.

[Grand Chief Sydney Garrioch]

If you have a folder--

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

I don't have one, but I can see very clearly from that--

[Grand Chief Sydney Garrioch]

That's the area we're representing, the 30 communities. It's a very large area: Treaty No. 4, Treaty No. 5, Treaty No. 6, and Treaty No. 10. Those are the areas.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Excellent. Thank you very much.

The honourable member for Nanaimo—Cowichan brought forward an excellent point a couple of meetings ago about trust and how it is something that must be there when we're moving forward on any of the issues on this file. I think it's a good step that we have taken as a government. We actually had Chief Lawrence Joseph in here, as you heard before, being very positive about not just the outcome of this legislation but the process in which this legislation took place, the mutual trust and respect that developed along this path. I think it's very important to recognize the political accord that was actually signed. I think the huge benefit there is that it happened at the beginning of an era of government, rather than in the dying, gasping days of the end of a government.

But to stay away from the partisanship, I do want to ask you if you've taken the opportunity to consult with all the treaties and the first nations in which you represent. Have you had the time to consult with them and get feedback from them on what they think of this legislation?

[Grand Chief Sydney Garrioch]

When MKO first heard about this proposed bill, we did send some briefing notes on the subject matter to inform the first nation leaders of the proposed bill. It's our responsibility to connect the leaders. We don't have the responsibility to consult first nations. It's up to the leaders in their own communities, because those are politics we don't want to get involved in. But we do advise them and guide them and also support them with whatever they require from the political office. That's the purpose of our political office, to provide the technical and legal advice as required or as stated. That's one area. And if it's required, we will consult with them.

We also had a briefing in a number of areas. One is the provincial consultation policy. We provided the first nation leaders that consultation policy, and we advised them not to accept it.

As well, there is a consultation process by the provincial government. We also advised them to work and develop agendas jointly and prepare and understand what's going to be discussed. So they need to know what's on the agenda and the information, as well as what they're going to work on.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

You and Mr. Harper have very well laid out your disagreements with this legislation. If this legislation were indeed passed, though, would there be first nations communities within the area you represent that would take advantage of this process and utilize it, do you believe?

[Grand Chief Sydney Garrioch]

That's what we're recommending. If this legislation is going to move forward, our people and our communities need to be part of the process. I'm not sure what's been established. The process has to be really working for each of our communities, because our communities are at various stages as well on the land issue. They're going forward, and they need to understand this process, and the act itself or the tribunal. If it's going to work for them, they need to understand it and review it in order to make sure they initiate a system.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

So then if this does move forward in its current form, you would foresee certain communities or first nations within the area you represent taking advantage of this? As we heard from Chief Lawrence Joseph, this system is far superior to what existed in, I believe, 1998 when it was first presented. You would see that, then?

[Grand Chief Sydney Garrioch]

In some sense it may be, because, as I indicated, some communities are advanced and progressive. They can deal with these matters because they have the necessary capacity and resources to work with it. Some communities are struggling. They're on a bare line priority-wise to deal with these items and they don't have the necessary resources to work with.

Out of the 30, I'd say 10 are so behind because of resource issues. They don't have the capacity to do priority setting. They're just dealing with the bread-and-butter issues right now to survive and they cannot deal with other matters in the areas of concern.

If we do consult them, maybe a small group of people will come to meet, and that's not consultation. We cannot do a proper consultation with just a small group of people.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Thank you.

For the last turn, Ms. Crowder.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Actually, I want to thank my colleague for bringing up the political accord, because I think it's an important thing to discuss.

You touched on independence earlier. One of the elements of ensuring the tribunal is independent is laid out in the political accord, which says that the national chief will be engaged in a process for recommending members of the tribunal. So there's an attempt to achieve independence of the tribunal, but again, it's in the political accord. There's also a piece around reacquisition of land in addition to reserve, which is also in the political accord.

Part of the challenge I see with political accords is that we know in the past--and this is not a partisan comment, because if you go back far enough, I'm sure you will see parties of all political stripes ignoring political accords--the importance of the elements outlined in the political accord relies on the nature of the government. So the question really is this. Is there any assurance or trust that future governments will honour a political accord that's signed by a current government, particularly when it's involved in such important matters?

Secondly, the tribunal is the end of the process. There's a whole bunch of steps before you get to the tribunal, and I'm still not convinced that the tribunal will deal with the large backlog of specific claims that are before the system now. I wonder if you could comment on that.

[Grand Chief Sydney Garrioch]

First, on the current-day federal government and the political accord, they are engaging in a process--that's one matter--but as for whether first nations in Manitoba will participate in that process itself, I haven't really seen a process established or engagement in the Manitoba region on that political accord. We are waiting to see whether they'll come forward to Manitoba to start consulting on that political accord.

Again, we are very skeptical, from the point of view of MKO, on any political accord. It seems that it changes with the government. They walk away from it, and that's been a past practice. I'm hoping the governments will understand when we do engage. And there's that discussion about the trust in the system. We worry about the government's responsibility. We talk about fiduciary duty as well, the honour of the crown. We want to make sure the government of the day deals with that very element of our discussion here.

With this tribunal system, again, we are very worried it may not work for our first nations in our region. There are so many outstanding issues that are outside of it. We want to make sure our first nations benefit on the land and the resources. As well, we're discussing resource sharing, and not only for today, for the first nations that want to benefit from these outstanding claims we're talking about, but it has to go beyond the generations that are living now. Those who are born now need to benefit, as well as those in the future.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I think Mr. Russell hit the nail on the head a little earlier when he talked about part of the challenge being that we're operating in a philosophy that doesn't recognize a nation-to-nation approach. Different nations have different approaches, and I think that's part of the challenge when we're trying to deal with a bill that is a one-size-fits-all.

Quickly, when you talk about outstanding issues, is it that some of the claims from MKO territories are over $150 million?

[Louis Harper]

The claims we're talking about are not necessarily related to specific claims. Mind you, we do have a lot of specific claims in northern Manitoba, but also claims relating to economic development, hydro development in the north. Those claims are outstanding, and certainly they have quite a huge price tag on them. But there are other claims to do with overlapping claims, for example, to Nunavut, the Dene of the north. Their lands were sort of carved out, when they handed in those lands prior.... There are other claims relating to relocation of first nation peoples; they're considered special claims.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Thank you. That concludes our questioning for today.

Grand Chief Garrioch and Mr. Harper, thank you very much for being here.

Thanks to committee members.

As a reminder, tomorrow morning there is a subcommittee meeting at 10 a.m. The committee will convene at its regular time on Wednesday afternoon at 3:30 p.m.

Thanks very much. The meeting is adjourned.