Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 5th, 2008

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

When they met with me, they told me that was the kind of answer they expected to get from INAC. It's unfortunate. We've had situations in which records are really difficult to get because schools have burned down, etc. I don't want an answer to this; I just want to put it on the record for you.

In answer to my question on Attawapiskat and my question on funding for education for aboriginal children, the minister suggested that there are priorities, and that there just isn't enough money to meet all of the priorities. So I guess the question that needs to be asked is who's setting the priorities? Why is it that a government able to dish out, I think I heard the finance minister say, something like $200 billion in tax breaks to folks, most of it in corporate tax breaks—

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Mr. Martin, just get to the question—you're out of time—and then I'll allow a short answer.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Yes, I will.

Why is it that, with all of the money dished out through the budget and the mini-budget and now this budget, we don't have enough money to meet the priorities of some of the most marginalized and at-risk of our citizens, our first nations?

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Mr. Martin, you're an experienced parliamentarian. I think you know that the question that you're asking about, how the government sets its priorities, is inherently—

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

I'm getting to the question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Well, we're already a minute over your time, so if you have a short question and a short answer, I'll admit it. Otherwise, I'm going to carry on.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Sure.

Have you participated with the minister in championing that kind of approach—getting some of the money that's being given away so we can actually attach it to these priorities?

[Michael Wernick]

I'm not going to comment on budget setting and relative priorities. I'd be happy to try to explain the methodologies.

Parliament will give us about $1 billion for community infrastructure. That goes to housing, education, other community uses, water, and services. We try to use a ranking system and waiting lists. Stuff happens. There are fires. Projects are delayed. It's impossible to get the contractor. We try to squeeze every dollar of value and get as many projects as possible paid for each year with the money that Parliament appropriates us.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Thank you.

Mr. Bruinooge, you have five minute.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

I would like to thank all of the witnesses. I have the opportunity to work with you on a regular basis, and I appreciate your efforts and your sincerity in trying to do the best you can for aboriginal people in Canada.

Perhaps it would help to take a look at some of the actual numbers in the detailed departmental planned spending. I'm familiar with some of these numbers, but maybe we could go on the record with a bit of a further breakdown.

I'd like to start at the top in relation to governance, institutions of government. Spending of roughly $637 million is forecast for the 2007-08 fiscal year. I was wondering if you could break this down a bit for us.

[Michael Wernick]

I'm sorry, do you have the line item?

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

It's under “Governance and Institutions of Government”. It's one of the line items. It's in the Library of Parliament breakdown.

[Michael Wernick]

Are you referring to the supplementaries, or the main estimates, Mr. Bruinooge?

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

This is the supplementaries.

[Michael Wernick]

I don't have that at my fingertips. We will be back here in April or May with the main estimates. There's about $6.3 billion in the departmental budget, plus whatever we'll be adding because of the recent federal budget, which will add some spending on water, child and family services, and education. On the governance and institutions of government, I can get you more information on that. A lot of that would be related to implementation of self-government agreements, support for band councils, the basic sorts of governance structures of the 600 first nations.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

Do you know the percentage breakdown in relation to some of the advocacy groups, such as the AFN, NWAC, and others? Do you know how that would be broken down in that number?

[Michael Wernick]

Yes. We fund a variety of representative organizations, I guess is the title. There are several national ones you are familiar with. There is also a series of provincial and regional ones. There are specialized ones such as the Inuit Women's Association and so on. There are about 50 organizations. All in, the figure that comes to mind is about $120 million each year. Some of that is what you would call core funding--ongoing support for the organizations--and some of it is very specifically tied to projects.

One example would be the consultations we did on the matrimonial property legislation. That was a very specific arrangement with the Native Women's Association and the AFN to deliver a consultation process. There are a number of those, such as the work we did on the specific claims legislation with AFN and several regional organizations. I can get you a breakdown on past years.

The forecast will depend a little bit on where the work is and what other projects emerge, but $120 million would be a pretty close estimate.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

Perhaps just going back to the point you made in relation to matrimonial property and the process that was undertaken with NWAC as well as the AFN, do you have round numbers for what that process cost?

[Michael Wernick]

Off the top of my head, I think it was about $8 million for matrimonial real property consultations, give or take. I'll get you an accounting for that. That was to deliver both the work of the minister's representative and to do a number of regional and community consultations over the period from when the consultations were launched--I think just down the hall from here--to the finalization of the bill. It was, give or take, $8 million, but I could get you a more precise figure.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

Okay, I appreciate that.

I have one minute, and if you don't mind, I will just go down this list here. There are a number of other areas I want to ask about. Some of them I do have some information on myself, but in relation to managing individual affairs--this is another item that was broken out by the Library of Parliament--it comes in at $24.7 million. I know that is pretty specific. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but could you give us a further breakdown on that particular line item if you have the information?

[Michael Wernick]

There are parts of the minister's responsibilities, and therefore mine, that have to do with the old Indian Act, such as the management of moneys, trusts, estates, the registry, and the status cards, which we had some questions on last time. I'm sure the bulk of that money is accounted for by the registry system, the status card, and the management of trusts and estates of individuals.

Just as a 30-second commercial, one of the benefits of the Indian residential school settlement is there was a huge awareness of financial management and the need to have wills, which will actually improve performance in that area.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Thank you.

Mr. Russell, you have five minutes.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Good afternoon, and thank you for being here.

I certainly wish the minister could have stayed, of course, but we will have another opportunity, and I will congratulate him on going through a demythification process about his concepts and his stereotypes around aboriginal communities. I would hope he will continue on that particular track. I would have liked to inform him that there are indeed aboriginal communities that have nice halls and nice schools and good management systems, so I hope he continues on that particular personal journey of his.

I would also say, with all due respect--this has nothing to do with you officials--I find it hard to swallow the pedestal on which my colleagues on the opposite side have put themselves when it comes to advocating on behalf of aboriginal rights and aboriginal women in general, when their record in opposition shows they voted against almost every piece of major legislation that would have improved the lives of aboriginal people for 13 years. That has been their record, so I find that a bit incredulous.

I will continue to ask a specific question. If the demand is so great, and--as the minister sort of said--it is so infinite in terms of the need, in terms of capital expenditures in whatever form they come, why is it that we can't spend that $20 million, and that it must be reallocated somewhere else?

[Michael Wernick]

What $20 million?

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Out of capital expenditures into grants and contributions--why can't you spend it, if the need is so great?