Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 14th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Good afternoon, everybody. Welcome to the 29th meeting of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development.

We are pleased to welcome the Honourable Chuck Strahl, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, and officials, to our meeting today. Welcome, Minister.

I think members are familiar with our routine. The minister will begin with an opening statement, followed by rounds of questioning.

With that, Mr. Strahl, the floor is yours.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It is a pleasure to be back before the committee, and I appreciate the work you've done since we last met. It's nice to see this committee working through its agenda.

I welcome this opportunity to discuss the Main Estimates of the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development.

There are a couple of things I want to do in my time before you this afternoon. I want to discuss the main estimates, of course, but I also want to expand on some of our recent progress on issues of real importance to aboriginal people, and emphasize for committee members how vital it is that we continue to pursue our collaborative and results-based approach.

These main estimates reflect this government's determination to make tangible progress on aboriginal and northern issues through genuine collaboration and resolute action. We're working to address the fundamental obstacles that stand in the way of greater prosperity for aboriginal peoples and northerners. Our approach involves working with willing partners to design and implement fundamental solutions that reflect real results--for example, solutions for particular challenges such as unsafe drinking water and ineffective specific claims resolution processes.

This collaborative approach has already produced several important breakthroughs. Significant progress has been made in overcoming the challenges presented by the provision of safe drinking water to first nations communities, the improvement of child and family services, and improvement in the supply of housing, to name only a few.

These and other results demonstrate the advantages of working in good faith with willing partners to formulate distinct plans, establish clear priorities, and dedicate adequate resources. The main estimates now before this committee are part of this government's practical approach to planning. They propose the strategic investments needed to support further progress.

Although the total amount in this year's main estimates is smaller than that of last year, year-over-year changes must be interpreted in the context of the entire budget cycle. As the first step in the fiscal cycle, the main estimates do not include resources to be acquired through the supplementary estimates. In fact, supplementary estimates A, tabled in the House yesterday, result in an increase of approximately $483 million in my department's budget for 2008-09.

This set of main estimates does increase the funding allotted to Indian and Inuit programs and services such as education, housing, community infrastructure, and social support. This increase also includes funding for the family violence prevention program, the new first nations infrastructure fund, and a transfer from Industry Canada for Aboriginal Business Canada.

The north is also part of my mandate, so I want to touch briefly on progress made here as well. As you know, I am also responsible for leading the advancement of the government's integrated northern strategy. This strategy supports the government's vision of a new north by focusing on four integrated priorities: sovereignty, economic and social development, governance, and environmental protection, and since 2006 we've moved forward across government in all four areas.

In fact, to cite just a few examples, we've announced plans for a world-class Arctic research station. We're pursuing devolution in Nunavut and the Northwest Territories. We are advancing the northern regulatory improvement initiative. We're also acting on Budget 2008 commitments that build on these priorities with key measures to protect and secure Canada's sovereignty and create more economic opportunities for northerners. Many of my cabinet colleagues are moving forward with their own northern initiatives, and that's good to see as well.

But there is more to the story than just numbers and spending.

I firmly believe that money alone—no matter how large the amount—will not enable us to achieve our larger goals.

Similarly, no single player acting alone can effect the changes needed. To make meaningful, sustainable improvements in the lives of aboriginal people requires broad collaboration, careful planning, and effective action. All three feature prominently in this government's strategy on aboriginal issues.

We formed productive partnerships to make headway on issues that matter to aboriginal people. We have worked with first nations leaders from across the country on water, education, child and family services, and settling claims. To cite a recent example, a few weeks ago I signed an MOU with the Province of New Brunswick and New Brunswick first nations to improve the quality of education for first nation learners in that province. I'm very excited about that proposal as well.

Let me talk a bit more about what we have been able to accomplish with our partners. As I think I mentioned the last time I was before committee, we've made considerable progress since 2006 in improving drinking water systems in first nations communities. Budget 2008 committed $330 million over two years to the first nations water and waste water action plan, which I announced last month. This is the next step in ensuring that first nations have the clean, safe water they deserve.

We have also committed $300 million to the first nations market housing fund, which is now open for business. This innovative program will provide first nations people living on reserve with more housing options so that people can build home equity while at the same time respecting the tradition of communal ownership of reserve and settlement land. Initiated in partnership with Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, the program aims to make home ownership a realistic option for first nation families who live on reserves. Over the next ten years the fund is expected to add some 25,000 new housing units for first nations communities. It was a pleasure to introduce the board members and make that announcement just a week or so ago.

This government has also launched a collaborative plan to overhaul the processes used to resolve specific claims. I know you are very familiar with that. We believe that the negotiated settlements of specific claims produce a wealth of benefits for all Canadians, not just aboriginal people.

The creation of a specific claims tribunal, proposed in Bill C-30, is the centrepiece of a larger plan to overhaul specific claims processes. The plan, designed in collaboration with the Assembly of First Nations, commits Canada to resolving specific claims in a fair, timely, and open manner. l'm convinced that improvements to specific claims processes will benefit all Canadians, aboriginal and non-aboriginal alike. I appreciate the committee's work on Bill C-30, and I'm looking forward to its swift passage through the Senate. I know that discussions with senators have already started to take place.

l'm also delighted that Bill C-47, the legislation to safeguard the matrimonial real property rights of first nations women and children living on reserve, has begun second reading in the House. I hope this committee will soon have the opportunity to consider this important piece of legislation.

We also remain committed to legislation to ensure that first nations on reserve are finally fully protected by the Canadian Human Rights Act. I look forward to that bill coming back here as well.

Bill C-34 is also before the House. This legislation proposes to enact the Tsawwassen First Nation final agreement. I hope that it, too, will be here before committee for its consideration before long. That landmark agreement is the result of another remarkable collaboration between first nations, Canada, and British Columbia, and negotiations that stretched over 100 consultative sessions with regional governments, community groups, and other interested parties. It was a real collaborative effort to put forward an excellent agreement, which I hope will go quickly through the parliamentary process.

Under the terms of the final agreement, the Tsawwassen First Nation acquires not only land and a financial component, but also a seat on the metro Vancouver regional board. This arrangement means that the first nation, municipality, and board will work together to create and execute plans that serve the interests of all residents. I trust that members of this committee will appreciate the significance of this collaboration once they begin their review of Bill C-34.

I would like to take a quick moment to provide an update on the implementation of the historic Indian residential schools settlement agreement. The Government of Canada has received over 91,000 applications for the common experience payment, and it has processed more than 81,000, totalling $1.23 billion. At the same time, the important work of the independent assessment process has begun, and that's well under way as well.

As you are aware, on April 28 I had the great pleasure of announcing the appointment of Justice Harry LaForme as chair of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. The work of Justice LaForme and the historic Truth and Reconciliation Commission will be instrumental in building a renewed relationship with aboriginal communities. It was a pleasure this week to announce the final two commissioners, Claudette Dumont-Smith and Jane Brewin Morley, who will complete that commission so they can begin their work on June 1.

The next step in the process of healing and reconciliation is an apology to former students of Indian residential schools. Preparations are progressing on that, on what I'm convinced will be a very fine moment, a very respectful, meaningful apology that will be great for our government, our country, and for aboriginal people across Canada.

I will depart from my text here for just a minute to express my appreciation to Peter Harrison, who has spearheaded the Indian residential schools settlement and the work that has been done to date in making sure we came to what I think is a very good moment. He's going to be moving on to other things. I think Queen's University may be in the mix. I'm not sure. This may be his last committee appearance.

I'm not just saying this so you'll have mercy on him. I'm actually saying this because I think the entire country owes a big debt of gratitude to Mr. Harrison. He has done his work in a way that's garnered the respect of successive ministers, but more importantly, or just as importantly, of the entire aboriginal community. I just want to say, if I can here, that I respect all these people here with me today, but I say a special thank you to Mr. Harrison for the fine work he's done, and I hope you'll ask him the right kinds of questions to reflect that as we move forward.

[Voices]

Hear, hear!

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

[Applause]

Mr. Chairman, I think even this quick review of progress shows, pretty conclusively I hope, that the government is not particularly interested in theoretical solutions. We're interested in working with willing partners to make a difference, not at some indeterminate point of time in the future but as quickly as possible and starting with right now.

The investments outlined in the Main Estimates will enable Canada to follow through on its commitments to Aboriginal peoples and Northerners. This government will continue to accurately measure the performance of its programs and remain fully accountable to Canadians.

Our investments outlined in the main estimates will enable us to follow through on our commitments, and we're going to continually evaluate and measure our performance so that we can report not only to you, but obviously to Parliament generally, and remain accountable to all Canadians.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I'm happy to take your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Thank you, Mr. Minister. And by staying within the timeframe you have set an excellent example for our committee members today.

I have just a couple of small pieces of housekeeping, committee members. I'm going to stick closely to the seven-minute and the five-minute timeframes today so that we get as many turns as possible asking the minister questions, and I will again be giving you the one-minute warning to let you know when we're getting near the end. So I'd appreciate if you didn't ask six questions and ask all five people to answer them with a minute left, because that doesn't work very well.

I have one other quick comment, Mr. Minister. We haven't received final approval yet, but this committee would like to do a study on the opportunities and challenges of economic development in our northern territories. We're actually hoping to travel to Nunavut in June, if we can get the permission of all the people who have to give us permission to do that.

We see that this committee has spent much of its time over the previous years dealing with aboriginal issues, and that's certainly very important, but we also recognize that northern development is part of the mandate of this committee as well, and we would like to dip our oar in that water as well.

Finally, Mr. Harrison, congratulations from all of us. I actually met Peter years ago when he was the deputy at Natural Resources Canada on a Team Canada mission in China, in Beijing. Congratulations on your career.

Now I'd like to begin the first round of questioning, for seven minutes. Ms. Neville, go ahead, please.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for being here today.

Before I begin my comments and questions, I too want to wish Mr. Harrison well. We know you've had a challenging job, and we certainly wish you well in the next career you move on to.

Minister, I've got a whole whack of questions here to ask, but I have to make a comment first, and I don't mean to be disrespectful.

I listened and I read carefully as you spoke. You gave us a lot of words and you gave us basically a history of what we all know. All of us around this table are pretty steeped and immersed in this file. What I'm profoundly disappointed in is that you haven't addressed the very real challenges we're grappling with.

As you know, the Auditor General's report has been out. As you know, we're dealing with issues of housing and of education. We have heard about shortfalls of money; you have said many times that money is not the answer. Clearly, from the Auditor General's report there seems to be a significant shortage of it, at least in the child welfare system. We know from your previous appearances here that moneys have been moved from capital projects to cover operating projects.

The words are nice. It was a nice summary of what has or hasn't been done, or of the perceptions of what has or hasn't been done. But to my mind--and I say this with respect, because I know this is a complicated file--we are not dealing with the real issues of the day.

As I say, I've got a whack of questions here, but I'm going to start with the Auditor General's report because it is so fresh and tangible and has such a profound impact.

First I would like to know what the department's response is to the funding of child welfare services. Are you willing to take steps to revise the current funding formula? If so, what are they?

We heard that you're funded at a 6% take-up. We know the pilot project in Alberta is funded at 6%, although the take-up is much higher. So are you looking at a new formula? If not, why not? When will a new formula be in place? Could you speak to that?

Is the department working in collaboration with first nations and the provinces on this? What I would like is a comprehensive answer. I can give you all the detailed questions, but I would like a comprehensive answer on how your department is planning to address what many of us view as a very serious issue.

I will just add one comment; I said it last week. We saw that plans are being rolled out in 2010 or 2012, and I've said this in other forums before: a year in the life of a child is very long time. To me it's an urgent issue.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Well, I agree. Especially for child and family services, it's important to all of us, and extremely important to first nations, as the Auditor General has pointed out.

We accept the analysis of the Auditor General. It is important to note that spending for child and family services has basically more than doubled: it's gone from $193 million in 1996-97 to about $481 million last year, over that period of time. Much of it was under the Liberals, but certainly there's been lots of money spent on it. The problem is that the results aren't what they should be.

You asked about what we will be doing differently. We do now have the authority to enter into agreements to move to a prevention-based model for child and family services, something that wasn't in place before. What we inherited when we came into office was a system based on a 20-year-old model. That needed to be changed; it needs to move to a prevention-based model, as has been noted by the Auditor General.

We have the first one in Alberta. There is some concern that it might cost more money, and it might cost more money in the early years, but the whole idea of a prevention-based system is to spend the money and make the investments so that you don't have so many kids who have to be taken from homes.

There is more money in this budget to allow us to extend that model, and it's not way off; it's this year. We are hoping to have agreements with a couple more provinces again this year to extend that model, or something similar. We don't want to be too prescriptive, but we do want to move to a prevention-based model for child and family services. That's where we'll be going.

In my own defence, if you will, or the government's defence, some of the other things I've mentioned, such as specific claims, safe water programs, and so on, are not theoretical; those are important, big projects that will mean hundreds of millions and billions of dollars to first nations. So they're important too.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I don't deny that they're important, but as we've heard and as we know, they're happening at the expense of other projects, notably education, and that concerns us.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Claims are completely separate.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Claims are different, I'll grant you that, but water is certainly not.

You speak frequently about the fact that money is not the issue. The Auditor....

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

You have one minute.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I don't want to get into a debate. I want answers.

I want to know how you will adequately fund the child welfare system. We've heard that you're funding it on the assumption that 6% of children are going into care or needing assistance. We've heard that in many communities the numbers are well beyond that. Are you prepared to put more money in to address their needs and to have a prevention program?

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

If I could have a minute, Mr. Chairman, again, not only is the money for specific claims all new money, but so is the money for water. There is $330 million--

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I'm talking about child welfare.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

I'm just answering. You said that the water was not new money. The water is new money. It is $330 million in new money specifically for the action plan on water. So it's new money, and I'm happy to answer questions about that.

Again, on child and family services, we do have more money to move with provinces as necessary or as possible to negotiate new deals and to do it in a way that moves to a preventive model.

Again, I think it's worth saying that the problem on-reserve, as you mentioned, is sometimes a multiple factor for kids that are in apprehension or are taken out of their homes. The number is not appreciably different off reserve. That means that even in provinces where you have.... What it points to is that we collectively have to look at bigger issues than just the model. There are other issues at play here besides simply the reserve model or the type of child and family services we have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Monsieur Lemay, vous avez sept minutes.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

We will leave some time for the minister.

Minister, you have been in government now for a few months, even one or two years. I am extremely disappointed. I would like you to explain three things to me.

To begin with, the community infrastructure programs are being reduced from $1,265,276 000 to $1,031,544 000. This is serious business. It amounts to $230 million being cut. I want to know what will go by the wayside. I need all the details: where are the cuts going to be made?

The social development budget is going up from $1,400,481 000 to $1,451,851,000. That is a marginal increase of $51-million. Where will this extra money be spent?

Moreover, the budget for education is being increased $1,667,197,000 to $1,719,351,000, a slight increase of merely $53 million.

As you will recall, Minister—in case you do not remember, I am reminding you—I asked you questions on March 5^th about whether there would be investments in the education of young people.

Why are there no computers in the schools? In schools on a reserve just one kilometre from a school for white children, there is no library and there are no computers. Why has no one paid any attention to that? I would like a detailed answer.

You told me, and I quote you with respect:

It may well be—and it's my hope—that as we move ahead, whether it's with Quebec [...] those arrangements will become mutual [...] or something else to put children first.

I do not see that in the budget, Minister. I do not see that you are going to be putting children in Aboriginal communities first. I do not want you to tell me about situations off reserve. The current problems are really on reserve, in Aboriginal communities.

I do not see anything in 2008-09 that will improve the situation in Aboriginal communities. I have looked long and hard and studied every word, but there is nothing there.

The real insult, Minister, is that spending increases today are still capped at 2% per year, whereas Aboriginal communities need an increase of 13% per year. Why is that cap still in place?

Minister, you can have all of my remaining time, but I can assure you that it will be hard to convince me, especially since you are asking us to pass Bill C-47. I have to admit that this is a problem for me.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

I hope this doesn't take up Mr. Lemay's time. It might have been the translation, but he referred to some stats in the beginning. I am wondering if he would refer to the pages and I'll try to follow along as a new member.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

It is in the estimates.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Okay. I thought you referred to the page number, and I was trying to follow along.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

It is page 3-7 in French. In English,...

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

That's okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Thank you, Mr. Lemay.

We'll restart the clock. You have three minutes, Minister.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Yes.

I am listening carefully.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Lemay. Do you have your ear piece? Are you ready to go?

I will try to answer in English, I think, to try to talk a little quicker.

On community infrastructure, to compare apples to apples it's important to understand what happened in 2007-08; that with the expiration of the old water infrastructure plans and the introduction of the new ones, the amount we're going to be spending on water this coming year has to be added to the infrastructure spending allocated there, in order to talk about the same thing.

It was included in the overall infrastructure numbers last year—I believe I'm right on that—and this year it was separated out as a stand-alone plan, the safe drinking water plan. That money has to be added to it, and when you add that money, there's actually an increase in infrastructure spending overall from last year.

On education, I'm going to stand by my words, really, from the last time. Since we last met, we've signed a memorandum of understanding with New Brunswick. Just as another example, we have the one in B.C., which is quite specific. It talks about everything you mentioned in your remarks: it talks about standards, curriculum development, services for children, culturally sensitive material, expectations from both provincial, federal, and first nations governments.

It put it in legislation. It's a very specific program in B.C., which was signed off just this last fall—November, I think it was—and which will be proceeding. I'm very excited about that prospect.

In New Brunswick, it's a different deal, but again a tripartite agreement. In that agreement, the provincial government chose a different route with first nations. We were all there a little while ago to sign an agreement that the provincial government is going to augment. We're going to do a bunch of work on assessment and a bunch of other things to help make the system work better. In return, the New Brunswick government's going to fund it to the tune of 50% of the money we're investing, putting it back into first nations specific programming.

It's a great MOU, and we're really looking forward to it. My hat's off to the New Brunswick government for taking that approach.

I believe the best way forward is with willing partners. It's really the theme of my speech, that in working with the provincial governments, really the only way to do it is to meet provincial standards, with provincial expectations, with willing partners both in first nations and with the federal government. We're showing our commitment to do that.

I think it is the way forward. That old schoolhouse model, where we might have a school on a reserve in isolation that doesn't have the support networks every other public school around it might take for granted—the sharing of library services, sharing the mobility of teachers, ability for curriculum development, or at least for bringing that curriculum development to a reasonable expense.... All of those things are possible when you work together. It's an extremely expensive, and I think a less productive model, to have a schoolhouse model wherein, in isolation, everybody tries to recreate the wheel.

I think the model, if I can be so blunt, must be federal-provincial agreements with first nations to move forward. It is, as Bob Nault said a while ago in the national papers, not just about money. I didn't make up the phrase; he was talking about the Kelowna accord, and he just was convinced it wouldn't work. You could pour a bunch of money into it, for example, in child and family services. We doubled the amount of money in child and family services. The results are just no good, because the model's wrong.

You have to go to a prevention model, and that means we have to work with the provinces, because the provinces have all the tools in child and family services to do prevention work. They've been doing it for ten years already. It's time we got on that boat and worked with them in a willing partner way.