Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 27th, 2007

[Ronnie Campbell]

They already have that.

[Frank Barrett]

Yes. In 1986 the policy was changed within the department to require that there be an implementation plan for land claim agreements.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

But it's not making a difference.

[Frank Barrett]

This agreement does predate that policy. But I do take your point: a policy does not guarantee implementation.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I guess what I'm thinking of is what can this committee do to ensure the implementation in the full sense and to be true to the spirit of these agreements, to ensure that it's happening? I'm not sure, but if you have any suggestions, I think we would all welcome them.

[Ronnie Campbell]

At the risk of being repetitive, again, I think certainly have an implementation plan, have an objective measurement periodically--I mean an objective measurement that involves all the parties--then report the results of that, but be transparent about it.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Regular accountability is what you're saying--on all of the signed agreements?

[Ronnie Campbell]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Thank you.

Before I go to Mr. Albrecht, I was just going to say, I had said at the beginning that we would break at 5:20 p.m. to spend ten minutes on business. If we happen to run out of questions before 5:20, we'll just do it immediately thereafter.

Mr. Albrecht.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll try to be very brief in my question.

There are certainly a lot of negative vibes to our meeting today, and I think all of us agree it's regrettable that we have this kind of a report that indicates such a high level of inactivity on an agreement that not only has potentially a lot of economic costs in terms of the millions of dollars, but also has the economic costs to the aboriginal people who could have benefited. I want to acknowledge that, and I hope we've learned a lot from this negativity.

I want to try, if we can, to look for something positive here. Maybe there's not much to find, but I will ask you, as you did your audit, were there certain parts of this that you could say yes, they had it right, it was great? Then, the second part of that would be, how could we replicate that success as we try to implement that in other areas where there's been dismal failure?

[Ronnie Campbell]

Thank you.

As Mr. Barrett pointed out, in some areas, in relation to environment and wildlife, all the parties seem to get it. They seem to be working together enthusiastically without any reluctance, and that side works. Now, what's the magic formula that has those individuals doing those particular things? I don't know, but that side I think works and it works well, and it involves departments other than the Department of Indian Affairs. It includes the likes of Parks Canada and other departments as well.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I guess that brings me to another question, then. You mentioned the lack of communication between departments. I think in a business, if you want to call it that, the size of the Government of Canada, that's always going to be a challenge. Do you have specific recommendations as to how we could improve that interdepartmental communication, other than grabbing people by the scruff of the neck and saying “Get talking”?

[Ronnie Campbell]

Yes, certainly at the signing of any of those agreements there are across government owners of various policies, and in the case we talked about in this particular audit, we are talking about contracting. So at the time when contracting provisions are being implemented into a land claim agreement, then if it's the Department of Indian Affairs that's taking the lead in the negotiations, they have to be talking to Treasury Board. Treasury Board owns that contracting policy, and Treasury Board needs to know when there are specific provisions that affect how people are to behave. They need to know that and to get that into the policy and make sure it's communicated. To the extent there are other instruments that are affected, those things should be automatic and they should be done at the time the agreement is signed.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

So it takes more than simply sending an inter-office memo?

[Ronnie Campbell]

That's correct.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

That's it, Mr. Albrecht?

Monsieur Lemay or Monsieur Lévesque, do you have any more questions?

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

No, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Mr. Bevington.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

I think what I've heard is that one of the individuals engaged in the implementation process in this department received an award for the work he did. So I think there's a culture here that has to be dealt with. You refer to it quite a bit in your audit report, where you speak to their failure to recognize their responsibilities, and their ongoing obstinance in understanding the spirit and intent of the agreements. I think there has to be some leadership there in this department to change that. I would hope that in some way this could be achieved, either through your report or through the work of this committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

Ms. Karetak-Lindell, do you have one more question?

[Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Liberal, Nunavut, NU]

It's more of a comment as we're winding up.

We take the Auditor General reports very seriously. They're the impetus for getting something going. I was saying to Anita that you can't keep expecting young aboriginal people to have hope for the future. Let's say someone who was 25 years old when this was being signed felt that his life and his family's lives were going to improve, but now he's almost 50 and still waiting. It sets a very dim picture for all of us, and does not give much encouragement for others to even seek to conclude land claims agreements.

I think it is incumbent upon all of us as members of Parliament, and everyone who is involved in the implementation of these land claims agreements, no matter which ones they are, to fulfill them. All parties are responsible. As you say, these are constitutionally protected agreements. If the Constitution can't protect Canadians, what else will?

This is a very serious report that we're hearing, and it's not just about this agreement; it is unfortunately setting a trend for all the other agreements. These are the same complaints we're hearing about the Nunavut agreement, which was signed after 1986 when we hoped that things were changing for the better.

[The Chair, Conservative, Barry Devolin]

I appreciate that, Ms. Karetak-Lindell.

Mr. Barrett and Mr. Campbell, thank you for appearing before us today. We appreciate the information you brought. Hopefully we will be able to use it in a productive manner.

[Proceedings continue in camera]