Evidence of meeting #15 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was audit.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
Well, Mr. Lemay took my question on the McCrank report, so I can't ask that one.
9:40 a.m.
Bloc
Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
I'm sorry. You can discuss the Quebec situation, the Cree.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
Have you looked at Nunavut at all? The situation there seemed to be sort of left out.
9:40 a.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
No, we have not looked at that.
I would mention that we are beginning an audit on economic development in the north and the whole regulatory framework, so I sure hope that will be of interest to the committee going forward.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
I want to thank our research staff. I'm new to this committee, Madam Fraser, and I'm trying to learn. I'm not sure I'm being successful, but I'll give it my best shot.
One of the questions they had suggested we raise is an interesting one. It's about evaluating the impact of the land claim agreements, and they refer to the fact that the department was supposed to conduct a pilot evaluation of land claim agreements by 2007. I want to know whether or not this was done. If so, did you monitor it, and do you have comments on that?
9:40 a.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
As I recall, in our audit on Inuvialuit they were supposed to have done an evaluation. One was done, or there were a number of issues raised. Perhaps Mr. Campbell might remember more.
There were a number of issues raised and recommendations, I believe. Frank, can you respond?
9:40 a.m.
Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I would simply comment, Mr. Chair, that when we began the audit, we were aware that the department was beginning an evaluation of the Inuit programs and the Inuit land claims and northern work. The plan in doing the audit was to be monitoring progress on that. At the end of the audit that had not been completed, so there was nothing for us to review or monitor.
I believe there's evaluation work going on now, but might I suggest that be a question to put to the department?
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
With our silly rules of how we conduct ourselves, my time is up, so I have to wait and come back to it. So hold on to that thought.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Rob Clarke Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Ms. Fraser, for attending.
You mentioned some interesting points, similar to those from across the table here. My home province is Saskatchewan, so it's involved in the treaty land entitlement claims in the speeded-up process in Saskatchewan. My home reserve is Muskeg, and we have treaty land entitlements in Saskatoon. It's very progressive and it does make a substantial amount of money because of economic factors.
The 2% to 3% cap was mentioned here today. When was that cap first brought into place?
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Rob Clarke Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK
At this rate, has the current government been exceeding the expenditures of the 2% and 3% cap?
9:45 a.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I think the 2% cap was brought in.... One report we have here talks about from 1999 to 2004. I think it was even probably before that, so it has been at least a decade that there's been a cap on funding.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Rob Clarke Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK
Has the government or the current government or INAC been exceeding the 2% or 3% cap on funding?
9:45 a.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I haven't done that analysis. I presume members might know better than I. I'm sorry, I don't have that information.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Rob Clarke Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK
Would you be able to find that for me and present it back to this committee?
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Rob Clarke Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK
Also.... Sorry, I've lost my train of thought here for a minute.
Mr. Chair, is it all right if share my time with LaVar? Thank you.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I appreciate the witnesses coming today.
After reviewing the status report, I'd like to refer to paragraph 4.9 of the report, where you underline that your audit did not include first nations or provincial governments. Given that fact that we're talking about a very integrated process involving the three partners, how would you account for the impact of the factors for the first nations and provincial governments on conversion times?
9:45 a.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
You're right, we are not the auditors and have no mandate to audit first nations. They have their own auditors, as do the provincial governments. We are really looking at what the department is doing in all of this. We do agree there are three parties in all of this, but we're really looking at their management processes.
Presumably there is some impact from other parties, and as we mentioned, the third party interest often has an impact upon that. When we did our first audit, for example, there were some of the issues just in the management processes at Indian and Northern Affairs that were affecting the conversion process. One example I can give you—which they have since addressed, we're pleased to see—was that an environmental assessment was required every two years. It was only good for two years. Because the process was so long, they would get to a certain point and then the environmental assessment would be outdated and they'd have to start all over again. That has now been extended to five years.
So we were trying to look at the management process within the department and how they were managing this, and whether they had a plan, targets, and how they were proceeding on that.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB
I guess it would be possible, because of the three partners, that this might account for some conversion rates between Manitoba and Saskatchewan. I'm not sure if you have been able to determine if there is any significance that has come out of that and was apparent in your audit.
9:45 a.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I would just point out for the committee that when we do any work dealing with first nations, we conduct extensive interviews and discussions with them. We always meet with first nations communities when we do this work. We don't do it simply within the department, and we have received excellent cooperation from first nations communities across the country. And they didn't mention anything particular there.
The main responsibility does lie with Indian and Northern Affairs to do these conversions. The department did not raise with us any particular differences between the two regions that could account for some of this. And as I mentioned earlier, there are still about a million acres that have been selected but that are not converted. If it were an issue of the first nations not making the selections, that would be another issue; but they are making the selections, and the conversion process is not occurring as quickly as it might.
