Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 7th, 2009

[Paul Chief]

The question was how we can fast-track this. The problem is the fiduciary responsibility of Canada. They don't want any liability. This is the process that slows down our conversion from common lands to reserve lands.

If I were a common citizen and walked down the street and bought a piece of property, it would be done within months, if the lawyers did not tie it up very long. Otherwise, it would become my property. As a first nation person, Canada has a fiduciary responsibility, and that fiduciary responsibility is having no liability. There's our comment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Chief.

Finally, we'll go to Mr. Albrecht, and we'll try to keep it to the five minutes.

Thank you.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I just want to follow up briefly on Mr. Bélanger's point about the 105 parcels. You indicated that there are no third-party interests outstanding. Can I assume, then, that this is all crown land, that the 105 parcels are all crown land?

[Paul Chief]

Yes.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Okay.

Have these crown lands all been surveyed and had environmental assessments done on them, or is that potentially what's holding up the process?

[Carl Braun]

That is potentially what is holding up the process. I don't have that detailed information in front of me per parcel, but it's almost a safe assumption to say that it's possibly a lack of funding to do the environmental audits and the surveys. That would be a factor.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I'm in agreement that I'd like to see those lists and see if we can expedite that process.

Mr. Braun, you mentioned in your remarks--and I wasn't able to follow every statistic you quoted, because we didn't have them in front of us, but I think you indicated that there's a 28% completion rate. The Auditor General said 34%. Then you indicated that at the current rate, it will take 25 more years. I believe that's what you said. I don't want to put words in your mouth.

You said that it was due to lack of resources. What resources? Is it only financial and personnel resources? If so, what kinds of resources would it take to speed it up? Or are there other resources you're referring to that I'm missing?

[Carl Braun]

It's a pretty broad question and it requires maybe a little more time than we have here. I'll try to be concise. The 28% we spoke to is under the Manitoba framework agreement. There are lands that have been converted under what we call the independent agreements that exist in Manitoba as well.

The 25 years is ambitious, as we are coming to a point where we are going to be dealing with encumbered parcels of land and so on. So it is ambitious.

In terms of resources--human resources, financial resources--there definitely needs to be a meeting of minds on the part of all parties, including third-party interests. There needs to be leadership brought to the file and management brought to the file.

I don't think I can adequately answer your broad question at this point. But I am sure that my colleagues can assist as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Do any of you wish to respond?

Chief Hudson, go ahead.

[Chief Glenn Hudson]

I wanted to comment on the conversion, maybe not this specifically, but just in general. Referring back to the illegal surrender of St. Peter's, which was deemed illegal, all that is required to have that land fall into the hands of the crown, in terms of surrendering it, is one vote, and it happens in a snap.

On the TLE side, you hear that it takes up to 25 years and beyond for us to get our land back. Why doesn't it happen at one vote also? They are two different situations, but it gives a comparison of how long it takes in terms of a release, and also how long it takes in terms of treaty land entitlement requirements of land.

[Chief Terry Nelson]

In the case of Roseau River, we tried a treaty land entitlement in 1996. The shortfall was 5,861 acres of land. We have converted 70 acres of land to this point, which represents 1.3%. So we're still awaiting 98.7% of just the shortfall, not the addition to reserve, the 16,218 acres.

Not to confuse the committee, but there are specific claims and there's treaty land entitlement. In 1871 the Roseau River was supposed to get 160 acres for a family of five. They said to us that if you give access to the crown to the 10.7 million acres of land, this reserve land would be yours forever. Forever didn't last very long. In fact, it was 32 years later that they came and got over 60% of our reservation, and they shot one of our members to acquire that 12 sections of land. We're negotiating a settlement on that one, and that's a specific claim.

Unfortunately, we also have members of Parliament who get elected in our region by people who are outside of the reservation. So it's critically important that it be resolved, because we do have a situation in that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Unfortunately, members and our guests here today, we really are finished. I apologize that there's rarely enough time to get everything in that we'd like.

We have some important committee business to undertake and we need about 10 minutes for that. So, members, we are going to undertake a very brief recess and we will resume the meeting at approximately 10 to 11. That meeting will be in camera.

Before we wrap up this segment, may I express, on behalf of the committee, our thanks for your attendance here today and also to the guests, representatives of the Treaty One first nations, who are also in attendance today.

I have two hands up here, Monsieur Lévesque, aussi Monsieur Clarke.

Monsieur Lévesque.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Mr. Chair, those appearing before us today have travelled a very long distance to be here.

Perhaps we should give Mr. Chief another minute or so, since he did request the floor to answer a question. It is up to you, but, given the distance they have travelled, I think they deserve to be heard.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Yes, I understand.

You have 30 to 40 seconds, Mr. Chief.

[Paul Chief]

Further to your comment with regard to resources, we need resources internally, but what we really need are resources in our region. We went through four directors of lands within the last two years, six within the last five years, and four RDGs within the last four years. This is the commitment in resources that we actually need within the Province of Manitoba.

Further to your comment with regard to the pipeline, I didn't know it was an issue here. I thought we were talking to the land entitlement. I didn't know that the pipeline was an issue within your comment. I just wanted to clarify that and make it part of the record.

Megwetch.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Merci beaucoup.

Mr. Clarke.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you.

Chief Nelson mentioned it, and I'm always looking at economic development for our first nations. Seeing our first nations people get jobs is always a concern for me, and I was curious about the economic stimulus that it might try to provide.

Hopefully, I can get some of my questions answered and maybe distributed to the rest of our committee and address some of the issues here. That's what my intention is.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Merci, Monsieur Clarke.

Megwetch to all of our presenters here this morning. I'm sorry we had to rush you along.

We'll take a very short recess and we'll come back in three minutes.

Merci beaucoup.

[Proceedings continue in camera]