Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on June 4th, 2009

[Christine Cram]

School assets...but then they essentially dealt with them as if they were schools. They then went to calculate what the appropriate school square footage or square metres was and things like that. We're saying they needed to look at the actual schools.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

That's why I said it would be interesting, once the department and the PBO.... I want to point out that they also used INAC's own figures.

[Christine Cram]

That's where I mentioned about using the integrated capital management system.

In terms of my comment on B.C., I wasn't trying to suggest they would be happy with the current formula. I was trying to say they wouldn't necessarily want the same factors to be considered as what FNEC is considering. They will want to line up with their province as opposed to the Province of Quebec.

Sorry, I've forgotten the last question.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I didn't have another question. I was just correcting the record. The announcement was not just about economic development.

On the issue around on-reserve students going to provincial schools and needing to take that out of their educational budget, there will be a discrepancy between what they're funded per student and what they actually have to pay the provincial government. That's accurate, is it not?

[Christine Cram]

What the cost is depends on where you are. But they do have to take the money.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I understand that there's a cost, but they have to pay it.

[Christine Cram]

They have to pay the money, except in certain circumstances, and I would ask Céline to speak on that.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Before you go there, I want to talk about the reverse, too--a provincial student going to a first nations school. I know this was originally brought up in B.C., and I believe it has now been corrected, but for provincial students going to a first nations school, the band got no additional money. It's been corrected in B.C. Has that been corrected across the country?

[Christine Cram]

I don't know if it has been corrected across the country. You're absolutely right. There was a reciprocal agreement negotiated in British Columbia whereby the same amount will be paid if a first nations child goes to a provincial school or if a provincial child goes to a first nations school.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Could you clarify that for us? We heard different information. We heard that when the provincial student goes to a first nations school, they get what the first nations get per student and not what the provincial government pays. Could you clarify that for the committee? I know we're out of time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Do you have a brief comment to clarify that, or do you want to get back to us?

[Christine Cram]

I would say that in British Columbia they have recently negotiated a reciprocal agreement such that it's exactly the same amount of money.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

We return now to Mr. Duncan, and then we'll have Mr. Bélanger for the final question.

Go ahead, Mr. Duncan.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

I'd like to talk about the John Ivison column in the National Post this morning. We do know how to read on this side of the table, Jean, so we're well aware that all your comments are based on a John Ivison column. They're not based on the actual announcement. I think it's kind of ridiculous to be basing so much of your questioning on the National Post, but I'm glad you put so much credibility in it.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

A point of order. He had quotes from the minister, and that's what I was using. I was using the quotes from the minister.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Okay, the point of order is heard.

Carry on, Mr. Duncan.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

That's enough said on that front.

I do have a confession to make. The confession is that my mother and father were both educators. I grew up in an educators' home. I was imbued with the fact that what obtains good results is a real commitment from the home, of course, but also from the teachers themselves and the school administration.

One of the British Columbia first nations involved in this group of communities that is negotiating with the federal government is in my riding. I went to their school on a “pro-d” day. In British Columbia we have “pro-d” days, or professional development days, when if you go into a public school, chances are you won't find very many teachers, because they're all somewhere else. I was most impressed, because every teacher was there. Every teacher was dedicated to his or her task, and it was obviously a very happy place. There were very productive, progressive things happening. They have embraced that as the lynchpin of making progressive, positive change in their community. It was very refreshing. That's all just a comment.

I am curious. We have very mobile families. In the province of Quebec, they're crossing the border to go to work. They're going into the U.S. We have similar circumstances across the country for work or due to family connections and this kind of thing. Is there an agreement between INAC and the equivalent in the U.S. on education for students who are mobile? Do we have an agreement, for example, with the Bureau of Indian Affairs schools? How does that work? It's a legitimate curiosity I have.

[Christine Cram]

To my knowledge, there isn't any agreement with the Bureau of Indian Affairs in the United States. There is one community where children attend schools in three different jurisdictions, and that's Akwesasne. They go to schools in Ontario, Quebec, and the United States. In those cases, it's the children who are physically in the United States who attend the schools there.

I will say that recently we met with the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and it's fascinating to see how they administer schools. We want to further pursue with them how they do it. A lot of their schools are what we would call federal schools in that they run them. Teachers are employees of the bureau, and they hold them to certain standards. In fact, if they don't meet those standards, they are very strict in terms of what happens. It's an interesting difference in how they've approached education.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

I guess related to that question is the fact that we have various levels of provincial accreditation within band-run schools across the country. Is there any movement, or direction, or initiatives that generally approach that issue?

[Christine Cram]

Part of the funding agreement with the first nation is that the teachers employed in teaching must be accredited by the particular province in which they teach. There is one first nation group organization that's in British Columbia—FNESC—which is going to be working toward developing a certification that would be recognized, but it would still be recognized by the province. That's one of the areas of jurisdiction that they will eventually exercise under their agreement.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Duncan.

I now have Mr. Bélanger, but I understand you have a different question to do with committee business. You have a question for the panel as well. Let's proceed with that. We'll hopefully have enough time for your other issue at the end.

Mr. Bélanger.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I have three comments to make, Mr. Chairman.

Ms. Crowder, I listened carefully to your suggestion to call another group from B.-C. to appear. I have a suggestion in the same vein. Perhaps we should go to them, perhaps even to B.C. It would give us an opportunity to visit some schools. Some things were said this morning about what state these schools are in which would be a concern to me if I were a departmental official. I think it will be worthwhile to go and visit a few schools. That would be my first comment.

Second, I sat on another committee that was considering the future of television, as well as a private member's bill which aimed to curb the influence of TV violence on youth. We spoke to everyone except the youth, and it would seem we are doing the same thing here. We're speaking to everyone except the students at the primary, secondary and post-secondary level. In our deliberations we should consider meeting with student groups and student representatives to get the opinions of those directly concerned.

My third comment has to do with post-secondary education. Without wanting to diminish the importance of grade school and high school, post-secondary education is what I am interested in. If I heard the figures correctly, there are over 30,000 potential aboriginal students at the post-secondary level and there are 45 aboriginal institutions which can accommodate 10,000 students. That would mean that over two-thirds of aboriginal students at the post-secondary level will be attending non-aboriginal institutions.

Regardless of how long it takes, I would like the department to inform us of the nature of the agreements. I also would like it to provide us with a list of the agreements that exist between the department and post-secondary institutions, either from the provinces — the provinces for the relevant ministries — or directly from the universities and colleges. I would also like to know how they are funded.

The University of Ottawa is in my riding. Under a previous government I had asked my colleague Andy Scott to help me obtain funding from the Department of Health to set aside six spots for aboriginal students at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Medicine. It did happen, but I recall that it was difficult to do.

What is the department's position on these types of initiatives? Ms. Cram knows what I am talking about, because I have been corresponding with her and with one of her supervisors. If possible, I would like to obtain a report from the department on the agreements we have signed with institutions or departments in the area of post-secondary education.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[Christine Cram]

Thank you very much for your question. Perhaps I can start by explaining that within the amounts set out for post-secondary education, approximately $22 million go to a program for post-secondary institutions. It involves a combination of aboriginal and non-aboriginal post-secondary institutions. There are now approximately 65 institutions receiving funding. Funds are not granted for operations nor for the establishment of these organizations, but to help aboriginal students. It is for the creation of specific programs, specific curricula for aboriginal students, and programs to help them pursue post-secondary studies. We did this because there was not a lot of uptake. That is why we believed it was crucial to invest in these types of programs.

Now, there are far more students attending non-aboriginal institutions than aboriginal ones. Institutions now make great efforts to offer programs which suit the needs of aboriginal students, in order to retain them. Kathleen and I have held discussions with post-secondary institutions to see what more they could do to help these students. They have shown great willingness to do the types of things you suggested, for instance to set aside a number of positions for aboriginal students at the faculty of medicine or elsewhere.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Okay. That will have to do it.

Mr. Bélanger, did you have something else?